Template:Did you know nominations/Es hat sich halt eröffnet: Difference between revisions

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:::::::Gerda, you’ve got some great potential hooks in that article. You don’t need my help. [[User:Viriditas|Viriditas]] ([[User talk:Viriditas|talk]]) 20:03, 7 December 2025 (UTC)

*This appears to be at an impasse, so giving some hook suggestions here. One of the hooks is misleading, but it might work as an [[WP:DYKAPRIL|April Fools]] hook if you are willing to have this run on April Fools instead of Christmas. However, it might also work as a quirky.

:*”’ALT1”’ … that [[Karl Marx ~~(composer)|Karl Marx]]~~ made an arrangement of ”'[[Es hat sich halt eröffnet|a Christmas carol]]”’? (The link to Marx could be removed if this runs on April Fools)

:*”’ALT1”’ … that Karl Marx made an arrangement of ”'[[Es hat sich halt eröffnet|a Christmas carol]]”’? (The link to Marx could be removed if this runs on April Fools)

:*”’ALT2”’ … that “”'[[Es hat sich halt eröffnet]]”'” is the only known Christmas carol in the [[Swabian German]] dialect? (This would require modifying the article and stronger sourcing per [[WP:DYKHOOKCITE]] due to it being a superlative hook)

:*”’ALT3”’ … that a [[hallelujah]] was added to the Christmas carol “”'[[Es hat sich halt eröffnet]]”'” after it was criticized for being too secular?

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::I like a variation of ALT3, perhaps ”’ALT3a”’: … that a hallelujah was added to a ”'[[Es hat sich halt eröffnet|German Christmas carol]]”’ after it was criticized for being too secular? [[User:Viriditas|Viriditas]] ([[User talk:Viriditas|talk]]) 23:04, 31 January 2026 (UTC)

[[File:Symbol confirmed.svg|16px]] Approving ALT1 for April Fools’ Day.–[[User:Launchballer|Laun]][[User talk:Launchballer|chba]][[Special:Contribs/Launchballer|ller]] 23:19, 31 January 2026 (UTC)

:I’ve moved this nom to [[WP:DYKAPRIL]] for April Fools’ Day. I’ve also removed the link to Karl Marx up above. [[User:Viriditas|Viriditas]] ([[User talk:Viriditas|talk]]) 23:31, 31 January 2026 (UTC)

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Es hat sich halt eröffnet

~~… that “Es hat sich halt eröffnet“, a traditional 18th-century Christmas carol from Tyrol and Swabia, imagines many angels tumbling from the gate of Heaven that opened (pictured) ?~~ Source: several
- Reviewed: Shuanglong Bridge
- Comment: For Christmas Eve, 24 December. The angels, boys and girls, in somersaults (or better – see below – rolling over, or what?) are mentioned in the first stanza, and the image comes close.

Created by Gerda Arendt (talk).
Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 2163 past nominations.

Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:59, 6 December 2025 (UTC).

Not a review, but given that this is talking about the events of a song, wouldn’t this violate WP:DYKFICTION? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:23, 7 December 2025 (UTC)

It is fact about the song being that old and from where (and interesting that from two areas now in different countries, and even then disconnected). The rest is a translation of things from the first stanza, to say what someone not reading German could not know. It adds interest, – I don’t know about any other song imagining the little angels doing somersaults (rolling over, see below), and it connects to the image (which isn’t brilliant but has a similar idea). Sadly, it hasn’t been translated into English, and is so much (cute) dialect that translation programs won’t help. – Listen, it’s fun 😉 – Thanks to Michael Bednarek who brought that into our Lilypond. Other hook ideas welcome, of course. —Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:42, 7 December 2025 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Our guidelines already state that saying that an article subject is a work of fiction does not count as meeting the real-world requirement for the purposes of WP:DYKFICTION. A new angle may be needed here. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 08:44, 7 December 2025 (UTC)

What in “18th-century song from Tyrol and Swabia” is fiction? We better also say what it is about, especially if that is interesting: little angels tumbling through the gate of Heaven that opened. I found a site translating into German, and that fed to Deepls results in: “The heavenly gate has opened / The little angels tumble out in great numbers / The boys and girls do somersaults / First up and down, then back and forth / Then below again, then on top of each other, which makes them even happier.” Listen and enjoy. —Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:57, 7 December 2025 (UTC)

WP:DYKFICTION states simply acknowledging that a hook is about a creative work is not sufficient, nor is adding an unrelated real-world fact to a hook which is otherwise about a creative element. In this case, saying that the hook’s subject is a real-world carol from a real-world place (such as saying that the carol came from Austria), but is still ultimately about “in-universe” or “in-plot” information (i.e. what is happening in the carol), would not count as a real-world connection. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:11, 7 December 2025 (UTC)

I wish you a merry season. —Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:48, 7 December 2025 (UTC)

Ideas? Viriditas, perhaps? —Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:22, 7 December 2025 (UTC)

Gerda, you’ve got some great potential hooks in that article. You don’t need my help. Viriditas (talk) 20:03, 7 December 2025 (UTC)

This appears to be at an impasse, so giving some hook suggestions here. One of the hooks is misleading, but it might work as an April Fools hook if you are willing to have this run on April Fools instead of Christmas. However, it might also work as a quirky.

Pinging Viriditas for thoughts on these proposals. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:15, 9 December 2025 (UTC)

Thank you for the offers. I am not interested in ALT2, because it is purely historical and offers no joy. I could live with ALT1 if nothing else gets accepted, but hope we will not have to do that. ALT3 is correct, but true for more than this song, and softly misleading regarding what “too secular” may mean. I thought of the following (before I saw the suggestions, – just had no time yet):

I would like the information about the two disconnect areas without saying “first” or “only”, as unusual. I would like a hint at how old this is, – Mozart may have known it (published the year he was born, but probably older), imagine 😉 – Have you listened? I would like to offer some of the fun in this song as a little Christmas present. Any suggestion to capture the little boys and girls angels enjoying their playing is welcome. —Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:52, 9 December 2025 (UTC)

A full review is needed here for ALT1-4. ALT0 has been struck due to the aforementioned DYKFICTION concerns. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:20, 11 December 2025 (UTC)

I take.–Laun chba ller 18:08, 19 December 2025 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: Long enough, new enough. QPQ done and Earwig has no valid complaints. ALT1 would need a link to Karl Marx and I prefer not to remove non-bolded links unless necessary and ALT2 is a superlative and needs excellent sourcing. I see no problem with ALT3, although perhaps you’d like to explain why it’s “softly misleading”. There’s the germ of a good hook in ALT4; I have never heard of Tyrol or Swabia and would suggest that “such as purzigagalan (somersaults)” wants trimming, although a song containing dialect words from two countries strikes me as unusual. The only place I can find the word ‘dialect’ is in the lead, where it is unsourced. Per WP:DYKHOOK, I must ask for a quote from any offline sources used for any hooks. Also, I’m just about to nominate XMAS (song) for DYK; please consider reviewing.–Laun chba ller 20:32, 19 December 2025 (UTC)

Thank you for reviewing. I forgot that someone not knowing German of course can’t see that the text is mostly dialect, compare this translation. I’d like to use it but it says Austrian/Bavarian while the other sources are more precise about Tyrol and Swabia. Tyrol is a state of Austria, as Texas is one of the U.S., with its own dialect. What can we do? My problem with ALT3 – as said – is that more than one hymn have been regarded as too secular. Several hymns began as love songs. It has nothing about what is special to this song: children at play, – I don’t know any other carol with the idea of the angels enjoying somersaults (rolling over). —Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:44, 19 December 2025 (UTC)

@Launchballer: would ALT4a: … that “Es hat sich halt eröffnet“, a traditional 18th-century Christmas carol, uses German and Austrian dialect words? be more accurate? As for ALT1, the idea was to have the link if it doesn’t run on April Fool’s, to make it clear that it is not referring to that Karl Marx. Only if it was an AFD hook would the link be removed. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:46, 20 December 2025 (UTC)

The problem is that this needs a source that actually says they’re dialect words, and I’d still need a quote from the source.–Laun chba ller 02:55, 20 December 2025 (UTC)

@Launchballer: If that’s the case, then perhaps either ALT1 or ALT3 is usable then? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:10, 20 December 2025 (UTC)

The Marx hook checks out, though is best saved for April Fools’ day. I’d still need a quote from the source for ALT3.–Laun chba ller 03:18, 20 December 2025 (UTC)

Since I asked, I slept. Now, there’s real life. I will try to look at the sourcing, and hope it will be today. What I don’t understand is: Why couldn’t I use the translation from dialect to German, with its obvious differences, as a source? The German Wikipedia doesn’t offer one, because its a default that a 1756 song from Tyrol will be in that dialect. —Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:01, 20 December 2025 (UTC)

Or how is this, not fiction but only saying what the topic is:

ALT4b: … that in “Es hat sich halt eröffnet“, an 18th-century Christmas carol from both Tyrol and Swabia, the angels are imagined as boys and girls enjoying somersaults?

Or shorter, but missing the interesting detail “from different areas”:

ALT4c: … that in “Es hat sich halt eröffnet“, a traditional 18th-century Christmas carol, the angels are imagined as boys and girls enjoying somersaults?

Or any other ideas of saying what makes this song different from all others? —Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:18, 20 December 2025 (UTC)

ALT4d: … that “Es hat sich halt eröffnet“, an 18th-century Christmas carol from both Tyrol and Swabia, uses the word “purzigagalan”? I think that it would come across that this is a funny word in whatever language, and we are requested to not “say it all”. —Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:59, 21 December 2025 (UTC)

I don’t think that simply having an unusual-sounding foreign word in a hook counts as “funny” most of the time. We’ve tried similar angles in the past and they didn’t work out. I actually like the idea behind ALT4b and ALT4c, but the issue is that I still feel that they are too close to WP:DYKFICTION for comfort. I’m not sure though if Launchballer thinks they count as fiction though, so maybe they will have a different opinion. If that ever happens, I’d be fine with either ALT4b or ALT4c, but not ALT4d (although I think the non-ALT4 angles are probably stronger). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:12, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

That’s a fair point. I also can’t see “purzigagalan” or “somersaults” in the article. As Christmas Eve is in the next-but-one set to be promoted, I strongly advise that you give me a quote from the source for ALT3 so I can approve it.–Laun chba ller 01:15, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

I can give you a hook that has nothing to do with fiction and that is

ALT5: … that “Es hat sich halt eröffnet” is an 18th-century Christmas carol from both Tyrol and Swabia?

Only: that leaves out all the fun in the song.

I am sorry that I didn’t have time yet to write more about the text, but began it now, which should support ALT4 and variants, the title being chosen for a collection of Tyrol Christmas songs, and the beginning quoted in three lines as an expression of childlike joy. —Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:08, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

I am sorry also about the translation of the purzigagalan. In conversation with native speakers I found that, while Deepl gave me somersault as translation of Purzelbaum, the German word for purzigagalan, when I translate it back it’s Salto in German, which is a specific and more acrobatic term. I was advised to try “roll over”, help in the matter is appreciated, but we surely should not make it part of the hook if it will be misunderstood. Striking those ALTs. —Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:00, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

If the most interesting point here, as Launchballer suggests, is that the hymn uses dialect words from two different countries, why not just go with ALT4a? It makes the Austria/Germany connection explicit: a reader may not get that Tyrol and Swabia are in different countries without clicking the links. If the main reason is to introduce those places, we could go with something like:

However, it does lose the connection to the dialects. Another possible wording could be:

However, that could make the hook more complicated. Personally I would probably go with ALT3 as it is straight to the point and more likely to get readership, whereas these attempts to workshop ALT4/ALT5 are just resulting in unnecessarily complex hooks. I know that ALT3 isn’t unique to the carol, as you said, but it’s still an unusual piece of information that most people probably don’t know. ALT1 is a possibility if you are fine with the hook running on a day other than Christmas. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:09, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

Thank you for trying to help! Besides my objection to the ALTs missing all the joy and fun this song offers, they might end up at ERRORS because when created there was no Austria nor Germany in the modern sense, and as we are talking about the time of creation, it would be historically wrong. Also: it seems unusual enough that one song comes from two different regions, – without the complication of countries that don’t really matter. Therefore I’d prefer ALT5 over its ALTs. But it’s missing all the childlike joy and dialect fun of this song, – boys offering cheese to the baby 😉 – I’d prefer it over no DYK at all, though. Viriditas, what do you think? —Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:35, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: The solution to that is ALT5c: … that the 18th century Christmas carol “Es hat sich halt eröffnet” is from the now-Austrian region Tyrol and the now-German region Swabia?. I see this is sourced to one offline source and two online sources, both of which imply Tyrol and Swabia are part of Austria and Germany but don’t outright say it.–Laun chba ller 02:45, 23 December 2025 (UTC)

I know Gerda really wants to go with this angle, but isn’t this wording just making the hook too clunky? The alternative would be to use just ALT5, but then it would lose the Germany/Austria context, so it’s not ideal either. In any other circumstance I would be fine with this angle, but given how much has to be done to this angle to make it “work”, I’m not sure why we don’t just go with another angle altogether since they don’t have the same accuracy or clunkiness issues. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 05:32, 23 December 2025 (UTC)

I have a wish for Christmas to Narutolovehinata5: please don’t begin a sentence with “I know Gerda” 😉 – or more seriously: only 2 comments for all participants in any discussion. What I wanted to tell (per: “Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it”) is the story of ALT0, and ALT5c is lawyering in my book, – Of the questions what? where? when? – it has a focus on “where”, and “what” is missing. – ALT4d would be my choice among the open ones, – let readers find out where Tyrol is and what purzigagalan are. Listen and enjoy, – thanks to Michael the lilypond in the article is fun! I have no more time for this. In dulci jubilo, now sing and be glad! —Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:41, 23 December 2025 (UTC)

@Launchballer: I’ve been thinking about this, and I wonder if ALT5a/ALT5b could be revisited. It seems like a good compromise between Gerda’s desire to highlight the regions, and your desire to highlight the countries, while avoiding the clunkiness of ALT5c. The issue is that “Tyrol” also includes a part in Italy, so saying “Tyrol, Austria” would be at best misleading (there is no such issue for Swabia, which as far as I can tell is entirely in present-day Germany). If the song originated from present-day Austria, then perhaps we can come up with a solution, but that is not clear in the sources. The safest option could be to just go with ALT5, if you prefer that angle, but it does mean it makes less obvious the “different countries” aspect you wanted to highlight.

There is also still the option of going with ALT3, which avoids the issue entirely (I do not see the “it’s not unique” concern as an issue since it is still not something the average reader would know); ALT1 is also now an option since the hook missed running on Christmas. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:49, 25 December 2025 (UTC)

How about using “Austrian Tyrol” and “German Swabia”? Dahn (talk) 17:50, 3 January 2026 (UTC)

I don’t remember if the conversation had already that when the song was texted there was neither today’s Germany nor today’s Austria. Also: all the territory things say nothing about the topic. We sang it today with several people who didn’t know it and we had a lot of fun that is missing in talking about locations only. —Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:11, 3 January 2026 (UTC)

Gerda, this is your comment from almost a month ago, on this very page: “and interesting that from two areas now in different countries, and even then disconnected”. Dahn (talk) 07:40, 5 January 2026 (UTC)

At the time, I wanted Christmas Eve, and was willing to almost anything. We missed the chance. More interesting because more unique than any locations is the funny imagination (roll over backwards and forwards from heaven, offer cheese asking the baby). We seem to have guidelines that go for locations rather than fantasy, but is that a good thing? Can we have a bit of both, perhaps? Would we say about Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony only where it was written? At this point, how about ALT3. —Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:16, 5 January 2026 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt and Launchballer: It has been several weeks since the last comment on this page. What is the status of this nomination? What is needed to get this approved? Z1720 (talk) 16:18, 31 January 2026 (UTC)

see original hook and introduction; this would have been my Christmas present. It was not wanted. —Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:49, 31 January 2026 (UTC)

@Z1720: any chance we can come to an agreement on a hook and put this into a SOHA for Christmas hooks for 2026? Viriditas (talk) 23:00, 31 January 2026 (UTC)

I like a variation of ALT3, perhaps ALT3a: … that a hallelujah was added to a German Christmas carol after it was criticized for being too secular? Viriditas (talk) 23:04, 31 January 2026 (UTC)

Approving ALT1 for April Fools’ Day.–Laun chba ller 23:19, 31 January 2026 (UTC)

I’ve moved this nom to WP:DYKAPRIL for April Fools’ Day. I’ve also removed the link to Karl Marx up above. Viriditas (talk) 23:31, 31 January 2026 (UTC)

Es hat sich halt eröffnet

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