*::Well, lambda is a Greek letter of course. I see what you’re saying, but note that [[Lambda#Unicode]] indicates Lambda was added as a “Latin” character in ”2024” which is, at risk of pointing out the obvious, extremely recent. There’s obscure and there’s obscure. Plus, from what you said, it sounds like the pronunciation (“kl”) isn’t even that close to Greek lambda for the rare case of someone who thinks they know how to pronounce a barred lambda. Anyway, article titles have special requirements and expectations to be accessible to non-linguists. It’s obviously fine to have the native form of the name in article text, but is there truly no spelled-out version using ”common” characters for the article title? I don’t want to get into OR here, but.. [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] ([[User talk:SnowFire|talk]]) 19:55, 24 September 2025 (UTC)
*::Well, lambda is a Greek letter of course. I see what you’re saying, but note that [[Lambda#Unicode]] indicates Lambda was added as a “Latin” character in ”2024” which is, at risk of pointing out the obvious, extremely recent. There’s obscure and there’s obscure. Plus, from what you said, it sounds like the pronunciation (“kl”) isn’t even that close to Greek lambda for the rare case of someone who thinks they know how to pronounce a barred lambda. Anyway, article titles have special requirements and expectations to be accessible to non-linguists. It’s obviously fine to have the native form of the name in article text, but is there truly no spelled-out version using ”common” characters for the article title? I don’t want to get into OR here, but.. [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] ([[User talk:SnowFire|talk]]) 19:55, 24 September 2025 (UTC)
*:::{{ping|SnowFire}} Yes, the Latin capital lambda with stroke was added in 2024 (it shouldn’t have been used when the article was created), the lowercase ƛ (which is used in the proposed move) has been in Unicode since its version 1.1 from the 1990s, which should be old enough. I’m not sure how to answer your question. It’s not “common” to you or to many, it’s a valid concern, but that’s what BC Parks uses and that’s the common English-language usage. [[WP:ENGLISHTITLE]] doesn’t say “don’t use letters people may be unfamiliar with”, it says use the most common English-language usage. –[[User:Moyogo|Moyogo]]/ [[User talk:Moyogo|(talk)]] 12:22, 25 September 2025 (UTC)
*:::{{ping|SnowFire}} Yes, the Latin capital lambda with stroke was added in 2024 (it shouldn’t have been used when the article was created), the lowercase ƛ (which is used in the proposed move) has been in Unicode since its version 1.1 from the 1990s, which should be old enough. I’m not sure how to answer your question. It’s not “common” to you or to many, it’s a valid concern, but that’s what BC Parks uses and that’s the common English-language usage. [[WP:ENGLISHTITLE]] doesn’t say “don’t use letters people may be unfamiliar with”, it says use the most common English-language usage. –[[User:Moyogo|Moyogo]]/ [[User talk:Moyogo|(talk)]] 12:22, 25 September 2025 (UTC)
*::::The point is this: let’s take the case of an obscure title with half Latin characters, half non-Latin characters. ”Even if” the few English sources that mention it always render it with the other half in Greek / Cyrillic / Chinese characters / etc., Wikipedia titling is to Romanize the non-Latin characters, because 99% of readers just flat disconnect from them and can’t parse them. Your point that this is ”technically” Latin above is noted, but realistically, we need something like Yexeweyem or a version closer to the real pronunciation, because the obscurity of the characters and their pronunciation means it might as well be Greek characters. [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] ([[User talk:SnowFire|talk]]) 13:27, 25 September 2025 (UTC)
*”’Oppose”’ per [[WP:ENGLISHTITLE]]. The proposed title is indecipherable and unpronounceable by a large majority of English speakers. [[User:Station1|Station1]] ([[User talk:Station1|talk]]) 18:39, 24 September 2025 (UTC)
*”’Oppose”’ per [[WP:ENGLISHTITLE]]. The proposed title is indecipherable and unpronounceable by a large majority of English speakers. [[User:Station1|Station1]] ([[User talk:Station1|talk]]) 18:39, 24 September 2025 (UTC)
*: While what you’re saying is a valid concern, that is not what [[WP:ENGLISHTITLE]] says. The majority of English-language sources use the name “Forward Harbour/ƛəx̌əʷəyəm Conservancy”, that is what is being proposed here. –[[User:Moyogo|Moyogo]]/ [[User talk:Moyogo|(talk)]] 19:40, 24 September 2025 (UTC)
*: While what you’re saying is a valid concern, that is not what [[WP:ENGLISHTITLE]] says. The majority of English-language sources use the name “Forward Harbour/ƛəx̌əʷəyəm Conservancy”, that is what is being proposed here. –[[User:Moyogo|Moyogo]]/ [[User talk:Moyogo|(talk)]] 19:40, 24 September 2025 (UTC)
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@Fram: You moved the article from Forward Harbour/̓əx̌ʷəyəm Conservancy to Forward Harbour/Yexeweyem Conservancy with the note “Latin script for enwiki titles, as used in source given”. the Latin lambda with stroke, with its uppercase and its lowercase ƛ, is a Latin letter used in Kwak’wala/Liq’wala (see the character properties in Uniview, the Unicode Latin Extended-D block with the character or Humchitt et al. 2023 which proposed the uppercase character to Unicode). The uppercase was added to Unicode 16.0 last year, the lowercase has been a Latin character in Unicode since the first version in 1990s. The only reference in the article that uses “Yexeweyem” instead of “̓əx̌ʷəyəm” or “ƛəx̌əʷəyəm” is Protected Planet, likely by mistake or lack of better choice, either because their system or their source doesn’t or didn’t handle the uppercase at all or didn’t handle the lowercase properly. The BC Parks sites and documents seem to use “ƛəx̌əʷəyəm” and the BC laws documents seem to use “̓əx̌ʷəyəm”. Can you revert your move or move to Forward Harbour/ƛəx̌əʷəyəm Conservancy if you think that is more approriate? —Moyogo/ (talk) 10:19, 11 September 2025 (UTC)
- The second option at least renders correctly on my pretty standard browser (Chrome), the first one starts with an empty rectangle (after the slash I mean). Fram (talk) 10:38, 11 September 2025 (UTC)
- It’s likely the fonts on your system are not up to date, but this is generally the case as system fonts haven’t been updated to Unicode 16.0 yet as far as I know. Considering BC laws shows the comma above the (capital) lambda with stroke and CanVec data shows a comma above the (lowercase) lambda with stroke, the title Forward Harbour/ƛ̓əx̌əʷəyəm Conservancy might be the best approach, if you want characters that are widely supported (although only a few fonts will position the comma above correctly). While the form Forward Harbour/ƛəx̌əʷəyəm Conservancy matches the one form used in BC Parks or BC Geographic names (and the Canadian Geographical Names Database which uses it), it’s more likely the comma above was lost than added considering it’s not correctly positioned in BC laws documents. In any case, either form is better than the Yexeweyem form used by Protected Planet. I don’t know if their source, the Canadian Protected and Conserved Areas Database, has corrected the spelling either way. —Moyogo/ (talk) 12:07, 11 September 2025 (UTC)
- @Fram: I managed to check the December 2024 CPCAD (Canadian Protected and Conserved Areas Database) and it has “FORWARD HARBOUR/ƛƏX̌ƏʷƏYƏM CONSERVANCY” in all-caps (except for ƛ), without the comma above. So Protected Planet should update its name from its source anyway. —Moyogo/ (talk) 14:25, 11 September 2025 (UTC)
- @Fram: Can you make the move (I can’t) or do we need to make a Wikipedia:Requested moves/Technical requests because of ƛ and ə, to either of Forward Harbour/̓əx̌ʷəyəm Conservancy, Forward Harbour/ƛ̓əx̌əʷəyəm Conservancy or Forward Harbour/ƛəx̌əʷəyəm Conservancy given the references. —Moyogo/ (talk) 22:59, 12 September 2025 (UTC)
Forward Harbour/Yexeweyem Conservancy → Forward Harbour/ƛəx̌əʷəyəm Conservancy – The name Forward Harbour/Yexeweyem Conservancy is used by the IUCN category reference Protected Planet https://www.protectedplanet.net/555516224 as “FORWARD HARBOUR/YEXEWEYEM CONSERVANCY” (in all-caps). That name was previously used in the source Protected Planet uses, the Canadian Protected and Conserved Areas Database (CPCAD). However, the 2025-06 CPCAD now has the name of the protected area as “FORWARD HARBOUR/ƛƏX̌ƏʷƏYƏM CONSERVANCY” (in all-caps). BC Parks and BC Geographic names (both used as references in the article) have the name as “Forward Harbour/ƛəx̌əʷəyəm Conservancy” (same as 2025-06 CPCAP in title-casing except for ƛ). The BC Parks/BC Geographic names should be used, as Yexeweyem isn’t an English adaptation of ƛəx̌əʷəyəm (ƛ should be pronounced like kl, as in ƛohos = Klahoose) but an ASCII approximation of it. There is no other English-language usage name besides that name. Moyogo/ (talk) 06:41, 24 September 2025 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink). Moyogo/ (talk) 12:39, 24 September 2025 (UTC)
- Comment. Are there any systemic Romanizations of the relevant Salish languages here that can be used instead if the old Romanization is bad? Non-Latin titles are a last resort. For obscure terms in non-Latin systems, a systemic Romanization is the usual fallback. SnowFire (talk) 13:39, 24 September 2025 (UTC)
- “Non-Latin” is a misnomer here: ʔ is a Latin letter, so are x̌ and ə. These are just less familiar than ç, ö or ß in the set of additional Latin letters. Within the context of Northwest/Pacific Coast they are relatively common in First Nations topics. For the past 10 years or so, BC, Canada and general public media have adopted several unadapted names (meaning using the original orthography without anglicizing) in protected area names, this is also true in the First Nations names and a few other contexts. That said, there are various transcription systems for Salish languages, this is the one used in this case. –15:59, 24 September 2025 (UTC)
- Well, lambda is a Greek letter of course. I see what you’re saying, but note that Lambda#Unicode indicates Lambda was added as a “Latin” character in 2024 which is, at risk of pointing out the obvious, extremely recent. There’s obscure and there’s obscure. Plus, from what you said, it sounds like the pronunciation (“kl”) isn’t even that close to Greek lambda for the rare case of someone who thinks they know how to pronounce a barred lambda. Anyway, article titles have special requirements and expectations to be accessible to non-linguists. It’s obviously fine to have the native form of the name in article text, but is there truly no spelled-out version using common characters for the article title? I don’t want to get into OR here, but.. SnowFire (talk) 19:55, 24 September 2025 (UTC)
- @SnowFire: Yes, the Latin capital lambda with stroke was added in 2024 (it shouldn’t have been used when the article was created), the lowercase ƛ (which is used in the proposed move) has been in Unicode since its version 1.1 from the 1990s, which should be old enough. I’m not sure how to answer your question. It’s not “common” to you or to many, it’s a valid concern, but that’s what BC Parks uses and that’s the common English-language usage. WP:ENGLISHTITLE doesn’t say “don’t use letters people may be unfamiliar with”, it says use the most common English-language usage. —Moyogo/ (talk) 12:22, 25 September 2025 (UTC)
- The point is this: let’s take the case of an obscure title with half Latin characters, half non-Latin characters. Even if the few English sources that mention it always render it with the other half in Greek / Cyrillic / Chinese characters / etc., Wikipedia titling is to Romanize the non-Latin characters, because 99% of readers just flat disconnect from them and can’t parse them. Your point that this is technically Latin above is noted, but realistically, we need something like Yexeweyem or a version closer to the real pronunciation, because the obscurity of the characters and their pronunciation means it might as well be Greek characters. SnowFire (talk) 13:27, 25 September 2025 (UTC)
- @SnowFire: Yes, the Latin capital lambda with stroke was added in 2024 (it shouldn’t have been used when the article was created), the lowercase ƛ (which is used in the proposed move) has been in Unicode since its version 1.1 from the 1990s, which should be old enough. I’m not sure how to answer your question. It’s not “common” to you or to many, it’s a valid concern, but that’s what BC Parks uses and that’s the common English-language usage. WP:ENGLISHTITLE doesn’t say “don’t use letters people may be unfamiliar with”, it says use the most common English-language usage. —Moyogo/ (talk) 12:22, 25 September 2025 (UTC)
- Well, lambda is a Greek letter of course. I see what you’re saying, but note that Lambda#Unicode indicates Lambda was added as a “Latin” character in 2024 which is, at risk of pointing out the obvious, extremely recent. There’s obscure and there’s obscure. Plus, from what you said, it sounds like the pronunciation (“kl”) isn’t even that close to Greek lambda for the rare case of someone who thinks they know how to pronounce a barred lambda. Anyway, article titles have special requirements and expectations to be accessible to non-linguists. It’s obviously fine to have the native form of the name in article text, but is there truly no spelled-out version using common characters for the article title? I don’t want to get into OR here, but.. SnowFire (talk) 19:55, 24 September 2025 (UTC)
- “Non-Latin” is a misnomer here: ʔ is a Latin letter, so are x̌ and ə. These are just less familiar than ç, ö or ß in the set of additional Latin letters. Within the context of Northwest/Pacific Coast they are relatively common in First Nations topics. For the past 10 years or so, BC, Canada and general public media have adopted several unadapted names (meaning using the original orthography without anglicizing) in protected area names, this is also true in the First Nations names and a few other contexts. That said, there are various transcription systems for Salish languages, this is the one used in this case. –15:59, 24 September 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose per WP:ENGLISHTITLE. The proposed title is indecipherable and unpronounceable by a large majority of English speakers. Station1 (talk) 18:39, 24 September 2025 (UTC)
- While what you’re saying is a valid concern, that is not what WP:ENGLISHTITLE says. The majority of English-language sources use the name “Forward Harbour/ƛəx̌əʷəyəm Conservancy”, that is what is being proposed here. —Moyogo/ (talk) 19:40, 24 September 2025 (UTC)
- English-language sources sometimes use non-English words. The “Kʷak̓ʷala/Liq̓ʷala Language Dictionary” cited in the article says ƛəx̌əʷəyəm is a Kʷak̓ʷala word translated to English as “Forward” or “village” and by extension “Forward Harbour” or “Village Bay”. Station1 (talk) 20:30, 24 September 2025 (UTC)
- The dictionary doesn’t say “by extension”, it says “expanded” ; “Forward” and “village” are keys, the expanded column is the translation or meaning. See Forward Harbour – BC Geographical Names for the English name of the harbour and ƛəx̌ʷəyəm – BC Geographical Names for the Lik̓ʷala name of the harbour. The name of the protected area is not “Forward Harbour Conservancy” in English, it is “Forward Harbour/ƛəx̌əʷəyəm Conservancy”. (Note BC Parks actually uses ƛəx̌əʷəyəm, not ƛəx̌ʷəyəm.) This is similar to “Akami−Uapishkᵘ−KakKasuak−Mealy Mountains National Park Reserve” which uses the English name of the Mealy Mountains along with the Innu and Inuttitut names of those mountains, and also does this in its French name, “Réserve de parc national Akami-Uapishkᵘ–KakKasuak–Monts-Mealy”, with the Innu and Inuttitut names along with the the French name of the Mealy Mountains. The names of those protected areas combine those names on purpose in the English-language usage (or in French in that last example). Slightly similar cases are the 2024 conservancies like Sup̓itsaqtuʔis Conservancy which don’t even have an “English part” but only a Nuuchahnulth part in the English-language usage name, or like the “šxʷƛ̓ənəq Xwtl’e7énḵ Square” in Vancouver where there’s only Halkomelem and Squamish parts to the English-language usage name. —Moyogo/ (talk) 21:19, 24 September 2025 (UTC)
- English-language sources sometimes use non-English words. The “Kʷak̓ʷala/Liq̓ʷala Language Dictionary” cited in the article says ƛəx̌əʷəyəm is a Kʷak̓ʷala word translated to English as “Forward” or “village” and by extension “Forward Harbour” or “Village Bay”. Station1 (talk) 20:30, 24 September 2025 (UTC)
- While what you’re saying is a valid concern, that is not what WP:ENGLISHTITLE says. The majority of English-language sources use the name “Forward Harbour/ƛəx̌əʷəyəm Conservancy”, that is what is being proposed here. —Moyogo/ (talk) 19:40, 24 September 2025 (UTC)
