Talk:List of largest empires: Difference between revisions

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I figured I’d make a section for empires where sources have been found for the maximum extent but with no year specified (meaning they can’t be included in the list). My hope is that this will be helpful when people try to locate sources. Feel free to add entries of your own to the list below. TompaDompa (talk) 23:38, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ashanti Empire: 100,000 square miles^[1] – since added using this source which provides the corresponding figure of 250,000 km² and the year 1820.^[2] TompaDompa (talk) 21:05, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Balhae: 438,000 km²^[3]
Đại Cồ Việt: 110,000 km²^[4]
Durrani Empire: 780,000 square miles/2,000,000 km²^[5]
Dzungar Khanate: 3,600,000 km²^[3] – since added using this source which provides the same figure and the year 1650.^[6] TompaDompa (talk) 03:03, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Kanem Empire: 300,000 square miles^[7]
Nguyễn dynasty: 370,000 km²^[8]
Southern Qi: 2,147,000 km²^[3]
Phoenicia: 250,000 square miles^[9]
Vijayanagara Empire: 360,000 km²^[10]
Wari Empire: 320,000 km^{2^[11]}
Wuhuan: 400,000 km²^[3]
Xianbei state: 4,500,000 km²^[3] – since added using this source which provides the same figure and the year 200.^[6] TompaDompa (talk) 03:03, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think we can add those empires in the list, I would only noted in the time cell “unknown”. Janos Neman (talk) 12:09, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about largest empires, as such they might not have been at the time they existed. Slatersteven (talk)

References

^ Obeng, J. Pashington (1996). Asante Catholicism: Religious and Cultural Reproduction Among the Akan of Ghana. BRILL. p. 20. ISBN 978-90-04-10631-4. An empire of a hundred thousand square miles, occupied by about three million people from different ethnic groups, made it imperative for the Asante to evolve sophisticated statal and parastatal institutions […]
^ Iliffe, John (1995-08-25). Africans: The History of a Continent. Cambridge University Press. p. 143. ISBN 978-0-521-48422-0. At its peak around 1820 the empire embraced over 250,000 square kilometres […]
^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e Cioffi-Revilla, Claudio; Rogers, J. Daniel; Wilcox, Steven P.; Alterman, Jai (2008). “Computing the Steppes: Data Analysis for Agent-Based Modeling of Polities in Inner Asia” (PDF). Proceedings of the 104th Annual Meeting of the American Political Scientific Association. pp. 8–9. Retrieved 2020-07-13.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: url-status (link)
^ Wade, Geoff (2014-10-17). Asian Expansions: The Historical Experiences of Polity Expansion in Asia. Routledge. p. 144. ISBN 978-1-135-04353-7. [T]he state of Đại Cồ Việt was established in the tenth century […] The maximum extent of the territory at that time was around 110,000 square kilometres.
^ Bosin, Yury V. (2009), “Durrani Empire, Popular Protests, 1747–1823” (PDF), The International Encyclopedia of Revolution and Protest, p. 1029, doi:10.1002/9781405198073.wbierp0481, ISBN 978-1-4051-9807-3, retrieved 2020-07-14
^ ^a ^b Bang, Peter Fibiger; Bayly, C. A.; Scheidel, Walter (2020-12-02). The Oxford World History of Empire: Volume One: The Imperial Experience. Oxford University Press. pp. 92–94. ISBN 978-0-19-977311-4.
^ Shillington, Kevin (2013-07-04). Encyclopedia of African History 3-Volume Set. Routledge. p. 733. ISBN 978-1-135-45670-2. The limits of the empire correspond approximately with the boundaries of the Chad Basin, an area of more than 300,000 square miles.
^ Wade, Geoff (2014-10-17). Asian Expansions: The Historical Experiences of Polity Expansion in Asia. Routledge. p. 144. ISBN 978-1-135-04353-7. [W]hen Nguyễn Vietnam surrendered to France in the late nineteenth century the territory it claimed to control had more than tripled to over 370,000 square kilometres
^ Hart, Hornell (1948). “The Logistic Growth of Political Areas”. Social Forces. 26 (4): 402. doi:10.2307/2571873. ISSN 0037-7732. In the Mediterranean area the earliest historic governments which extended their territory by major use of fleets were the Greek and the Phoenecian, reaching areas of approximately 250,000 square miles each
^ Morrison, Kathleen D.; Sinopoli, Carla M. (1992). “Economic Diversity and Integration in a Pre-Colonial Indian Empire”. World Archaeology. 23 (3): 336. ISSN 0043-8243. At its maximal extent the Vijayanagara empire encompassed some 360,000 square kilometers
^ Alcock, Susan E.; D’Altroy, Terence N.; Morrison, Kathleen D.; Sinopoli, Carla M. (2001-08-09). Empires: Perspectives from Archaeology and History. Cambridge University Press. p. 85. ISBN 978-0-521-77020-0. The total spatial extent of the empire, not including the north coast, I estimate to have been some 320,000 square kilometers.

This list has the Portuguese Empire in the top 10 in every language except English, no way this can be a reliable source of information for others when there are discrepencies like this. Is there any way someone could look into this? ChillMoai (talk) 22:32, 1 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I understand the point that the Estonian scientist makes, however it still seems wrong(?) and very inconsistent the way this page has been for years. If this is the correct list, which it isn’t by most other sources, shouldn’t the other language options follow it too? ChillMoai (talk) 19:39, 4 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

There could be a few different reasons that the corresponding lists from Wikipedia editions in other languages present different estimates for the area. One could be that they simply use a different approach—different criteria and whatnot. Another could be misinterpreting the sources they cite. A third could be misrepresenting the sources they cite. All of these things occur. TompaDompa (talk) 19:36, 7 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The real reason is that they don’t share your obsession with a supbar source, Rein Taagepera. Tercer (talk) 19:53, 7 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I mean, several other editions also use that source heavily. And it is of course a peer-reviewed scientific article specifically about the territorial extents of historical polities, which is just about the WP:BESTSOURCE we could get for something like this, but then I think you are aware of that. TompaDompa (talk) 19:56, 7 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. I think people forget how niche of a topic this is. Most historians, scientists etc. do not care enough about the exact historial size of empires. They care about other things in those empires, like culture and wars and rulers, but not enough about the exact territory, where they dive down to specify the km2 and date of their greatest extend. Speun (talk) 20:03, 7 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Obeng, J. Pashington (1996). Asante Catholicism: Religious and Cultural Reproduction Among the Akan of Ghana. BRILL. p. 20. ISBN 978-90-04-10631-4. An empire of a hundred thousand square miles, occupied by about three million people from different ethnic groups, made it imperative for the Asante to evolve sophisticated statal and parastatal institutions […]

[IlliffeAsante-2] Iliffe, John (1995-08-25). Africans: The History of a Continent. Cambridge University Press. p. 143. ISBN 978-0-521-48422-0. At its peak around 1820 the empire embraced over 250,000 square kilometres […]

[Steppes-3] Cioffi-Revilla, Claudio; Rogers, J. Daniel; Wilcox, Steven P.; Alterman, Jai (2008). “Computing the Steppes: Data Analysis for Agent-Based Modeling of Polities in Inner Asia” (PDF). Proceedings of the 104th Annual Meeting of the American Political Scientific Association. pp. 8–9. Retrieved 2020-07-13.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: url-status (link)

[4] Wade, Geoff (2014-10-17). Asian Expansions: The Historical Experiences of Polity Expansion in Asia. Routledge. p. 144. ISBN 978-1-135-04353-7. [T]he state of Đại Cồ Việt was established in the tenth century […] The maximum extent of the territory at that time was around 110,000 square kilometres.

[5] Bosin, Yury V. (2009), “Durrani Empire, Popular Protests, 1747–1823” (PDF), The International Encyclopedia of Revolution and Protest, p. 1029, doi:10.1002/9781405198073.wbierp0481, ISBN 978-1-4051-9807-3, retrieved 2020-07-14

[Oxford-6] Bang, Peter Fibiger; Bayly, C. A.; Scheidel, Walter (2020-12-02). The Oxford World History of Empire: Volume One: The Imperial Experience. Oxford University Press. pp. 92–94. ISBN 978-0-19-977311-4.

[7] Shillington, Kevin (2013-07-04). Encyclopedia of African History 3-Volume Set. Routledge. p. 733. ISBN 978-1-135-45670-2. The limits of the empire correspond approximately with the boundaries of the Chad Basin, an area of more than 300,000 square miles.

[8] Wade, Geoff (2014-10-17). Asian Expansions: The Historical Experiences of Polity Expansion in Asia. Routledge. p. 144. ISBN 978-1-135-04353-7. [W]hen Nguyễn Vietnam surrendered to France in the late nineteenth century the territory it claimed to control had more than tripled to over 370,000 square kilometres

[9] Hart, Hornell (1948). “The Logistic Growth of Political Areas”. Social Forces. 26 (4): 402. doi:10.2307/2571873. ISSN 0037-7732. In the Mediterranean area the earliest historic governments which extended their territory by major use of fleets were the Greek and the Phoenecian, reaching areas of approximately 250,000 square miles each

[10] Morrison, Kathleen D.; Sinopoli, Carla M. (1992). “Economic Diversity and Integration in a Pre-Colonial Indian Empire”. World Archaeology. 23 (3): 336. ISSN 0043-8243. At its maximal extent the Vijayanagara empire encompassed some 360,000 square kilometers

[11] Alcock, Susan E.; D’Altroy, Terence N.; Morrison, Kathleen D.; Sinopoli, Carla M. (2001-08-09). Empires: Perspectives from Archaeology and History. Cambridge University Press. p. 85. ISBN 978-0-521-77020-0. The total spatial extent of the empire, not including the north coast, I estimate to have been some 320,000 square kilometers.

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@@ Line 50: / Line 50: @@
 :::The real reason is that they don’t share your obsession with a supbar source, Rein Taagepera. [[User:Tercer|Tercer]] ([[User talk:Tercer|talk]]) 19:53, 7 October 2025 (UTC)
 ::::I mean, several other editions also use that source heavily. And it is of course a peer-reviewed scientific article specifically about the territorial extents of historical polities, which is just about the [[WP:BESTSOURCE]] we could get for something like this, but then I think you are aware of that. [[User:TompaDompa|TompaDompa]] ([[User talk:TompaDompa|talk]]) 19:56, 7 October 2025 (UTC)
+:::::Exactly. I think people forget how niche of a topic this is. Most historians, scientists etc. do not care enough about the exact historial size of empires. They care about other things in those empires, like culture and wars and rulers, but not enough about the exact territory, where they dive down to specify the km2 and date of their greatest extend. [[User:Speun|Speun]] ([[User talk:Speun|talk]]) 20:03, 7 October 2025 (UTC)

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