Talk:Jeffrey Epstein's 50th birthday greeting album: Difference between revisions

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* CBS: [https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/jeffrey-epstein-donald-trump-birthday-message-house-oversight/#post-update-6310b59d Epstein’s birthday book includes notes, photos and crude drawings]

A quick search for “birthday greeting album” only comes up with this Wikipedia article; it’s not a term used by reliable sources. [[User:Nice4What|Nice4What]] ([[User talk:Nice4What|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Nice4What|contribs]]) – ([[Help:Notifications/Thanks|Thanks]] ♥) 23:48, 20 September 2025 (UTC)

:Note: [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Sexology and sexuality|WikiProject Sexology and sexuality]], [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography|WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography]], [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Politics/American politics|WikiProject Politics/American politics]], [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Presidents of the United States|WikiProject Presidents of the United States]], and [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Presidents of the United States/Donald Trump task force|WikiProject Presidents of the United States/Donald Trump task force]] have been notified of this discussion. ”[[User:TarnishedPath|TarnishedPath]]”[[User talk:TarnishedPath|talk]] 00:44, 21 September 2025 (UTC)

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I can’t see that the signature we give in the infobox comes from the article cited. It also doesn’t seem to match the signature that’s been recently released by congress. Could someone double check it and remove/update it if necessary? NickCT (talk) 20:15, 8 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Better yet, someone should just replace it with an image of the full letter that has been released. AndyBloch (talk) 20:53, 8 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

^^Indeed. Better solution. NickCT (talk) 20:58, 8 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The actual documents are never linked, but they are available here

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ZSVpXEhI7gKI0zatJdYe6QhKJ5pjUo4b

from the oversight committee here

https://oversight.house.gov/release/oversight-committee-releases-records-provided-by-the-epstein-estate-chairman-comer-provides-statement/

I am not sure how to link Google Drive as a source… I will just put it somewhere, together with the link. And will try to figure out how to archive it, too. — Karel Bílek (talk). 08:35, 9 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I have also uploaded the actual letter from Donald Trump. I think he still has a copyright for it, it’s his work of art so it’s covered by copyright. – Karel Bílek (talk). 08:53, 9 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

LOL but Trump says he never draws anything! How can he have a copyright for something that he claims he didn’t create. Can’t have it both ways! 🙂 172.56.10.53 (talk) 18:25, 9 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, but in that case the author is unknown and it’s still under copyright, just with an unknown author. – Karel Bílek (talk). 19:15, 9 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I believe it the letter doesn’t meet the threshold of originality and could be re-uploaded as a free file. Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Thanks ♥) 00:12, 10 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I think it has… it’s text, added on line art. We can argue artistic value but it’s original art. – Karel Bílek (talk). 04:43, 10 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

from Commons

“Paintings

Not OK for most paintings.

Even seemingly simple paintings consisting of geometric shapes are often copyrighted due to details that may not be immediately obvious to the viewer.” – Karel Bílek (talk). 05:06, 10 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Even though it looks like it was made using a 1980s version of MS Paint? 172.58.11.114 (talk) 07:28, 10 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I don’t think how that should matter. Reading both the commons page on threshold of originality and the US page, I think this letter meets it. It’s made by human hands, most probably by the current US president, and it was clearly intended as some kind of art/expression. – Karel Bílek (talk). 08:00, 10 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It was released publicly by the government as part of a FOIA request. 95% of the content is just typed words … it seems more like a document than a piece of art to me. 172.58.11.114 (talk) 08:23, 10 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The rest of the album (about 200 pages) surely is an art expression – there are paintings, photos, and you cannot make the argument there that they are more of a document than piece of art and say they are public domain. There might be pages that are not, like the hand-written messages, but there are also photos. I think this page is an art expression. The only issue is the authorship; we cannot be sure who holds the copyright but I think it’s still under copyright. Technically the news that are reproducing the page are also breaking copyright; they just assume they won’t be sued. (The binder that was also uploaded is probably under originality threshold and PD is appropriate) – Karel Bílek (talk). 09:43, 10 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Epstein’s conviction was in 2019; this album precedes that. Is it fair to describe him as a child sex offender in the lead when this was prior to his conviction, or should it be moved later on (i.e. where we are talking about the relationship of Trump to Epstein)? GnocchiFan (talk) 22:28, 9 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

He was convicted of crimes that occurred prior to 2019, and has a long history of abusing women and girls for potentially several decades. It doesn’t seem inappropriate for that to be in the lead. 172.56.10.53 (talk) 23:33, 9 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I’m aware the crimes occurred prior to 2019, but this event happened before his conviction of those crimes. FWIW I’m not against including that descriptor in in the lead either, but was wondering what others thought. GnocchiFan (talk) 06:30, 11 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It appears to have already been addressed; someone edited the first sentence of the article to read: In 2003, the friends and acquaintances of American financier Jeffrey Epstein—who would later, in 2008, be convicted of sexual offenses against minors—gave him a bound album with personalized greetings for his 50th birthday, entitled The First Fifty Years.

Seems neutral and accurate, and the given context is helpful. 172.58.11.114 (talk) 08:04, 11 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I hadn’t noticed this, thanks! Definitely reads better this way. GnocchiFan (talk) 17:16, 11 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Are the photos made public in public domain? Or just essentially leaked by the government? There are many more drawings besides the alleged Trump drawing. I am not sure what the policy on including them would be Catboy69 (talk) 17:23, 10 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer’s talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Jeffrey Epstein’s 50th birthday greeting album → The First Fifty YearsThe First Fifty Years – Official title of book, more concise and basic. Also we should discuss whether to call this a book or an album; separate from this discussion if needed. Carlinal (talk) 18:20, 10 September 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. Tenshi! (Talk page) 23:01, 17 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per WP:OFFICIALNAMES and WP:TITLE. It is better known as the “birthday book” Jcoolbro (talk) (c) 18:36, 10 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Strong oppose: that is certainly not the common name. The current title is far better, although I would argue Epstein birthday book is more common. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 18:58, 10 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose – not the common name. Just make “The First Fifty Years” into a redirect, that should be good enough. 172.58.11.114 (talk) 21:50, 10 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

oppose clearly not the common name—blindlynx 23:22, 10 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

oppose – almost nobody is citing this album by this name. The album has no “official name”, it’s not a published book with ISBN etc. – Karel Bílek (talk). 08:09, 11 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. It’s often not even mentioned in news reports of the book. Y2kcrazyjoker4’s suggestion is a good one. Fences&Windows 09:56, 11 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. I haven’t seen “The First Fifty Years” used in any RS. Epstein’s “Birthday Book” or Epstein’s 50th Birthday Book are the names used. Space4TCatHerder 🖖 15:49, 11 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Like the others have said, it isn’t the common name, and it isn’t an in-print or out-of-print formal book. There is no “official” name. It is most similar to a scrapbook or a photo album, which is what it is being called in the media. Catboy69 (talk) 15:53, 11 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support – There is no actual common name; official title would make it easy to search. Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Thanks ♥) 18:47, 13 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support no common name yet, and the actual title. PARAKANYAA (talk) 01:10, 16 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Second part

Thanks for the responses, I really appreciate the reasoning. I hope this wasn’t a waste of any of your time, I opened this request mainly to get the First Fifty Years title out of the way and because I find the current title overlong and unchecked. Early bird is OK here, right?

I now propose the title “Jeffrey Epstein birthday book” from the information gathered. There seems to be consensus that it’s a book, and whether or not it’s part of his 50th anniversary seems to be irrelevant for the title. Anything else? Carlinal (talk) 22:59, 13 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

If it’s useful evidence in support of “Jeffrey Epstein birthday book” as a new title, I haven’t been involved in any discussion or editing of this article until this morning, when I literally typed “Jeffrey Epstein birthday book” into Google to see if there was a wiki page for it, when I was looking for info on whether the scientists noted in the book had been listed anywhere. So, support for “Jeffrey Epstein birthday book” I guess! Kauri-kauri (talk) 01:51, 15 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I don’t really care for that rename in either way. Both the current name and “Jeffrey Epstein birthday book” are fine… – Karel Bílek (talk). 10:17, 16 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Y Moved to Jeffrey Epstein birthday book. Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Thanks ♥) 14:28, 20 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I’ll close this in 24 hours to leave room for any last comments. Thank you! Carlinal (talk) 17:39, 20 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Post RM discussion

@Paine Ellsworth: No longer ongoing, It’s very clearly most editors didn’t want The First Fifty Years, but were okay with the concise “Jeffrey Epstein birthday book“. Could you please move the article back to that title? Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Thanks ♥) 22:10, 20 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

To editor Nice4What: I’m sorry, but as I said in my closing statement, I saw no agreement in this move request discussion for any other title suggested, and that includes “Jeffrey Epstein birthday book”. Editors can try again in a year or so, if there are good, reliable sources then to support changing this title. As it stands now, there is a strong consensus seen above not to rename this article at this time. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. – welcome! – 22:40, 20 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

No, the strong consensus was against “The First Fifty Years”, not an article rename as a whole. There was a growing consensus for “Jeffrey Epstein birthday book”. I don’t see the need for waiting a year. Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Thanks ♥) 23:34, 20 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Admittedly, in the “Second part” there were three editors, to include yourself, who preferred that name and one who said “Both the current name and “Jeffrey Epstein birthday book” are fine. That went up against all of the opposers who either wanted no move, or who suggested another title (not “Jeffrey Epstein birthday book”). That’s eight opposers with good arguments, so that’s not a consensus for a page move. I can see that you feel strongly about it, so let’s see how your new request does below. And we can note that you’ve chosen yet a different name by changing “Epstein” to “Epstein’s”. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. – welcome! – 00:28, 21 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Our text replaces WSJ’s “[illegible word]” with “errors”. Has the WSJ amended their reading in a later edition? (I don’t have a subscription and can’t check.) I think “errors” is correct, but I’m not a reliable source. I also think that “to have lasted as long” is actually “to have lasted so long” -> see pg. 126 of the redacted book published by PBS in full as a PDF on Cloudfront. Space4TCatHerder 🖖 16:12, 11 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Jeffrey Epstein’s 50th birthday greeting album → Jeffrey Epstein’s birthday bookJeffrey Epstein’s birthday book – Per WP:CONCISE, WP:COMMONNAME, and the fact that multiple editors above indicated a preference for this name. Referred to as the “birthday book” in multiple reliable sources:

A quick search for “birthday greeting album” only comes up with this Wikipedia article; it’s not a term used by reliable sources. Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Thanks ♥) 23:48, 20 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Sexology and sexuality, WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, WikiProject Politics/American politics, WikiProject Presidents of the United States, and WikiProject Presidents of the United States/Donald Trump task force have been notified of this discussion. TarnishedPath^talk 00:44, 21 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Talk:Jeffrey Epstein’s 50th birthday greeting album: Difference between revisions

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