:::{{Ping|James500}} That’s not how things work. All discussions and moves have followed the standard procedures and guidelines, and it is not my bot. It is entirely relevant what other countries do; our category system is supposed to be consistent. There’s nothing unique about Japan or the Japanese language in this situation. Category names should generally match article names and follow the naming formats of other categories. The main article is [[Music of Japan]], hence the category [[:Category:Music of Japan]], which follows the same format as every other country in [[:Category:Music by country]]. There is also [[History of Japan]] and [[:Category:History of Japan]], following the format in [[:Category:History by country]]. Those topics intersect as [[:Category:Music history of Japan]], following the format in [[:Category:Music history by country]]. For the language, there is already [[:Category:Songs in Japanese]], which is a subcategory of [[:Category:Japanese songs]], which is a subcategory of [[:Category:Music of Japan]]. I have turned [[:Category:Japanese music]] into a category disambiguation page. [[User:Mclay1|Mclay1]] ([[User talk:Mclay1|talk]]) 00:16, 27 November 2025 (UTC)
:::{{Ping|James500}} That’s not how things work. All discussions and moves have followed the standard procedures and guidelines, and it is not my bot. It is entirely relevant what other countries do; our category system is supposed to be consistent. There’s nothing unique about Japan or the Japanese language in this situation. Category names should generally match article names and follow the naming formats of other categories. The main article is [[Music of Japan]], hence the category [[:Category:Music of Japan]], which follows the same format as every other country in [[:Category:Music by country]]. There is also [[History of Japan]] and [[:Category:History of Japan]], following the format in [[:Category:History by country]]. Those topics intersect as [[:Category:Music history of Japan]], following the format in [[:Category:Music history by country]]. For the language, there is already [[:Category:Songs in Japanese]], which is a subcategory of [[:Category:Japanese songs]], which is a subcategory of [[:Category:Music of Japan]]. I have turned [[:Category:Japanese music]] into a category disambiguation page. [[User:Mclay1|Mclay1]] ([[User talk:Mclay1|talk]]) 00:16, 27 November 2025 (UTC)
::::Neither [[Music of Japan]] nor [[History of Japan]] is the main article of [[:Category:Music history of Japan]], which does not have a main article, because there is no article on the history of Japanese music either at [[Music history of Japan]] or at any other page name. The categorization guideline (WP:CAT) says nothing about a category being able to “inherit” a main article from another category in which it happens to be included, so there appears to be no question of the main article being one that is not included in [[:Category:Music history of Japan]]. If a main article was created for this category, it would have to be located at [[History of Japanese music]], because even the most cursory searches of reliable sources immediately confirm that is obviously the [[WP:COMMONNAME]] by a very wide margin. Expressions like “music history of Japan” etc are almost non-existent in reliable sources. [[Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Speedy#Opposing]] says “if you belatedly notice and want to oppose a speedy move that has already been processed” it is possible to do so, and that an admin can simply revert the move without a CfD. That said, I think it may be easier to just wait for [[History of Japanese music]] to be created at the obviously correct location, at which point there will be no choice but to revert the rename, so I am going to leave this for the moment. [[User:James500|James500]] ([[User talk:James500|talk]]) 23:09, 29 November 2025 (UTC)
::::Neither [[Music of Japan]] nor [[History of Japan]] is the main article of [[:Category:Music history of Japan]], which does not have a main article, because there is no article on the history of Japanese music either at [[Music history of Japan]] or at any other page name. The categorization guideline (WP:CAT) says nothing about a category being able to “inherit” a main article from another category in which it happens to be included, so there appears to be no question of the main article being one that is not included in [[:Category:Music history of Japan]]. If a main article was created for this category, it would have to be located at [[History of Japanese music]], because even the most cursory searches of reliable sources immediately confirm that is obviously the [[WP:COMMONNAME]] by a very wide margin. Expressions like “music history of Japan” etc are almost non-existent in reliable sources. [[Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Speedy#Opposing]] says “if you belatedly notice and want to oppose a speedy move that has already been processed” it is possible to do so, and that an admin can simply revert the move without a CfD. That said, I think it may be easier to just wait for [[History of Japanese music]] to be created at the obviously correct location, at which point there will be no choice but to revert the rename, so I am going to leave this for the moment. [[User:James500|James500]] ([[User talk:James500|talk]]) 23:09, 29 November 2025 (UTC)
:::::You’re misunderstanding what I said about the main article and ignoring all the other points. Even if an article were created [[History of Japanese music]], [[WP:C2D]] does not automatically trump [[WP:C2C]]. As I’ve said numerous times, there’s no reason for Japan to be different to all the other countries. [[User:Mclay1|Mclay1]] ([[User talk:Mclay1|talk]]) 06:52, 6 December 2025 (UTC)
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@User:Mclay1: This category should be moved back to “History of Japanese music”. Category:Music of Japan should also be moved back to “Japanese music”. Further page move nominations of categories from “Japanese music” to “music of Japan” should not be made. As far as I can see, it is possible to have Japanese music outside of Japan. See, for example, Japanese Music in Brazil, Japanese Music in Peru, Japanese Popular Music in Singapore and the Hybridization of Asian Music, and so on. James500 (talk) 04:44, 26 November 2025 (UTC)
- @James500: Following CfDs, the categories for all countries were moved (some very belatedly) as part of a reorganisation of culture categories by country instead of nationality. Not all music in Japan is necessarily Japanese, and “Japanese music” is ambiguous as it could refer to Japanese-language music. The name Category:Music of Japan (of Japan) is different to “Music in Japan”; it’s not necessarily excluding music from Japan in other countries, although I’m not sure if any articles on those topics you mentioned actually exist. If you would like to change the current convention, you can start a CfD, but Japan shouldn’t be an exception to the format followed by all other countries. Mclay1 (talk) 06:07, 26 November 2025 (UTC)
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- @User:Mclay1: Any discussion appears to have been held more or less in secret without actually consulting or notifying anyone actually editing in this area of the project (ie Japanese music). I did not know about the nomination until your robot made an edit to an article that I was watching. Attempting to exclude Japanese-language music etc from this category appears to be unhelpful precisely because we do need a category that includes Japanese-language music etc, and precisely because “Japanese music” does not appear to be ambiguous at all, and does appear to include both music from Japan and Japanese-language music etc. Even if we were to split the “Japanese music” category, the “Japanese music” category would still need to be retained as a container or disambiguation category, and any changes made would need to be made manually because you need to actually read the articles to determine what category they belong in. (Frankly, such a split would probably create a very complicated and difficult to navigate category system, and we should probably keep everything in “Japanese music” instead). The format followed by other countries is irrelevant, precisely because the Japanese language etc is not a country (and because the changes were never properly discussed anyway). Please stop making drive-by mass edits to articles with your robot, make no further nominations, and revert the changes you have made, until they have been properly discussed by editors actually working in this area of the project. Thank you. James500 (talk) 15:52, 26 November 2025 (UTC)
- @James500: That’s not how things work. All discussions and moves have followed the standard procedures and guidelines, and it is not my bot. It is entirely relevant what other countries do; our category system is supposed to be consistent. There’s nothing unique about Japan or the Japanese language in this situation. Category names should generally match article names and follow the naming formats of other categories. The main article is Music of Japan, hence the category Category:Music of Japan, which follows the same format as every other country in Category:Music by country. There is also History of Japan and Category:History of Japan, following the format in Category:History by country. Those topics intersect as Category:Music history of Japan, following the format in Category:Music history by country. For the language, there is already Category:Songs in Japanese, which is a subcategory of Category:Japanese songs, which is a subcategory of Category:Music of Japan. I have turned Category:Japanese music into a category disambiguation page. Mclay1 (talk) 00:16, 27 November 2025 (UTC)
- Neither Music of Japan nor History of Japan is the main article of Category:Music history of Japan, which does not have a main article, because there is no article on the history of Japanese music either at Music history of Japan or at any other page name. The categorization guideline (WP:CAT) says nothing about a category being able to “inherit” a main article from another category in which it happens to be included, so there appears to be no question of the main article being one that is not included in Category:Music history of Japan. If a main article was created for this category, it would have to be located at History of Japanese music, because even the most cursory searches of reliable sources immediately confirm that is obviously the WP:COMMONNAME by a very wide margin. Expressions like “music history of Japan” etc are almost non-existent in reliable sources. Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Speedy#Opposing says “if you belatedly notice and want to oppose a speedy move that has already been processed” it is possible to do so, and that an admin can simply revert the move without a CfD. That said, I think it may be easier to just wait for History of Japanese music to be created at the obviously correct location, at which point there will be no choice but to revert the rename, so I am going to leave this for the moment. James500 (talk) 23:09, 29 November 2025 (UTC)
- You’re misunderstanding what I said about the main article and ignoring all the other points. Even if an article were created History of Japanese music, WP:C2D does not automatically trump WP:C2C. As I’ve said numerous times, there’s no reason for Japan to be different to all the other countries. Mclay1 (talk) 06:52, 6 December 2025 (UTC)
- Neither Music of Japan nor History of Japan is the main article of Category:Music history of Japan, which does not have a main article, because there is no article on the history of Japanese music either at Music history of Japan or at any other page name. The categorization guideline (WP:CAT) says nothing about a category being able to “inherit” a main article from another category in which it happens to be included, so there appears to be no question of the main article being one that is not included in Category:Music history of Japan. If a main article was created for this category, it would have to be located at History of Japanese music, because even the most cursory searches of reliable sources immediately confirm that is obviously the WP:COMMONNAME by a very wide margin. Expressions like “music history of Japan” etc are almost non-existent in reliable sources. Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Speedy#Opposing says “if you belatedly notice and want to oppose a speedy move that has already been processed” it is possible to do so, and that an admin can simply revert the move without a CfD. That said, I think it may be easier to just wait for History of Japanese music to be created at the obviously correct location, at which point there will be no choice but to revert the rename, so I am going to leave this for the moment. James500 (talk) 23:09, 29 November 2025 (UTC)
- @James500: That’s not how things work. All discussions and moves have followed the standard procedures and guidelines, and it is not my bot. It is entirely relevant what other countries do; our category system is supposed to be consistent. There’s nothing unique about Japan or the Japanese language in this situation. Category names should generally match article names and follow the naming formats of other categories. The main article is Music of Japan, hence the category Category:Music of Japan, which follows the same format as every other country in Category:Music by country. There is also History of Japan and Category:History of Japan, following the format in Category:History by country. Those topics intersect as Category:Music history of Japan, following the format in Category:Music history by country. For the language, there is already Category:Songs in Japanese, which is a subcategory of Category:Japanese songs, which is a subcategory of Category:Music of Japan. I have turned Category:Japanese music into a category disambiguation page. Mclay1 (talk) 00:16, 27 November 2025 (UTC)
- @User:Mclay1: Any discussion appears to have been held more or less in secret without actually consulting or notifying anyone actually editing in this area of the project (ie Japanese music). I did not know about the nomination until your robot made an edit to an article that I was watching. Attempting to exclude Japanese-language music etc from this category appears to be unhelpful precisely because we do need a category that includes Japanese-language music etc, and precisely because “Japanese music” does not appear to be ambiguous at all, and does appear to include both music from Japan and Japanese-language music etc. Even if we were to split the “Japanese music” category, the “Japanese music” category would still need to be retained as a container or disambiguation category, and any changes made would need to be made manually because you need to actually read the articles to determine what category they belong in. (Frankly, such a split would probably create a very complicated and difficult to navigate category system, and we should probably keep everything in “Japanese music” instead). The format followed by other countries is irrelevant, precisely because the Japanese language etc is not a country (and because the changes were never properly discussed anyway). Please stop making drive-by mass edits to articles with your robot, make no further nominations, and revert the changes you have made, until they have been properly discussed by editors actually working in this area of the project. Thank you. James500 (talk) 15:52, 26 November 2025 (UTC)
