Talk:Andreas Papandreou/GA1: Difference between revisions

 

Line 257: Line 257:

:* “Although Mitsotakis’s New Democracy secured 43%,” I changed it to 44% to be in agreement with the source.

:* “Although Mitsotakis’s New Democracy secured 43%,” I changed it to 44% to be in agreement with the source.

:* “authoritarian” : I provided the quote from the book (emphasis added): Clogg 2013 p. 169: {{xt|the rather ineffective anti-junta resistance group directed from abroad by Papandreou, and another left-of-centre resistance group, Democratic Defence, many of whose members were soon to rebel against Papandreou’s ”’authoritarian”’ leadership. PASOK’s performance (14 per cent) in the 1974 election was a considerable achievement, given that Papandreou had no pre-existing organisation on which to base his new party.}} You can verify in Google Book preview [{{GBurl|-YELAgAAQBAJ}} here].

:* “authoritarian” : I provided the quote from the book (emphasis added): Clogg 2013 p. 169: {{xt|the rather ineffective anti-junta resistance group directed from abroad by Papandreou, and another left-of-centre resistance group, Democratic Defence, many of whose members were soon to rebel against Papandreou’s ”’authoritarian”’ leadership. PASOK’s performance (14 per cent) in the 1974 election was a considerable achievement, given that Papandreou had no pre-existing organisation on which to base his new party.}} You can verify in Google Book preview [{{GBurl|-YELAgAAQBAJ}} here].

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Nominator: A.Cython (talk · contribs) 03:20, 30 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Z1720 (talk · contribs) 18:13, 9 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

After taking a quick look through the article, I have a couple of concerns that need to be addressed before a full review can take place:

• At over 14,000 words, this article is WP:TOOBIG and too detailed, going against summary style. I recommend that a full copy-edit be conducted and information that is too detailed be moved to other articles or removed.
• There are numerous uncited statements in the article. Some could be solved by moving the citation to the end of the sentence (if the citation verifies that information) but other uncited statements need the inline citation added. I have put “citation needed” templates where these citations are missing.

If these two problems are solved within a week, I recommend keeping this open. If this would take longer than a week, I recommend that this nomination be failed so that improvements can be done without the time constraints of GAN. Z1720 (talk) 18:13, 9 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

First all thank you so much for willing to do this review. Your comments are of great help in improving the article. Is it possible to extent the deadline by another week. I was on vacation these days and as such it was much more difficult to adequately address your comments since I had limited access to internet and resources. Thank you again. A.Cython (talk) 10:42, 15 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@A.Cython: Yes, this can be extended. I am also going on vacation soon for about a week, so I will take another look at this upon my return. Z1720 (talk) 14:24, 15 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I have tackled the uncited statements. In the following days, I will deal with reducing the length of the article. However, please note that while the guideline for an WP article to be around 9000 words, there are exceptions. Articles of controversial figures, such as Winston Churchill (14857 words), George W. Bush (14380 words), Ted Kennedy (14181 words), tend to violate this guideline. The main reason from my perspective is that to carefully tackle controversial aspects require to describe in detail these aspects. Andreas Papandreou, as historian Thanos Veremis said in an interview, is the most controversial Greek political figure of the 20th century. As such, relaxing this rule to ensure that we cover accurate the literature seems reasonable, at least in my opinion. Nevertheless, I try in the following days I will do what I can to reduce the length of the article. If you have specific recommendations, please do not hesitate to mention them. Thank you for extending the deadline so that I can address your comments.A.Cython (talk) 22:13, 25 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@A.Cython: I’m checking up on this to see its progress. While I understand your argument that this is a major figure, there are many sections in the Papandreou article that are far too large for an article of this scope. For example, “Education” has four very large paragraphs: the most important aspects of his education reforms should be highlighted, while the rest of the information is moved to “Education in Greece” or spun out into a new article. This is one example of how the article can reduce information that is too detailed. I recommend that you continue moving information to other articles. Z1720 (talk) 19:10, 6 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Z1720: I will focus on Education subsection today. I guess the other subsection that can be shorten is the one on Terrorism. Again, thank you for being patient. A.Cython (talk) 16:40, 7 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Z1720: I have reduced the overall article to 12012 words from 14367 words (28 July version), which is total reduction of 2363 words. I also reorganized the structure by adding appropriate subsection titles and moved some sections under the “Legacy & assessments” section. I do hope that these changes were in the right direction. Additionally, I find it hard to see how it can be reduced further without doing some damage to the article via fragmentation. Note that in the process of completely re-writing the article almost a year ago I had to create two new articles, Koskotas scandal & 1985 Greek constitutional crisis, and so I understand the argument of moving material to other articles. However, the presented material, I think, is just enough and necessary to capture the different facets of Papandreou, but these are short enough to stand on their own. Note that both Education & Healthcare subsections are necessary because the reforms initiated by Papandreou as part of his transformative social agenda. If there are other specific comments please do not hesitate to share them. Thank you in advance.A.Cython (talk) 20:19, 20 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@A.Cython: This is excellent work, and I hope trimming the article can keep going to get it closer to 8,000 words. I noticed an entire paragraph that could be cut as it was about his daughter (and thus off-topic), so perhaps there are other spots that also have unnecessary off-topic information that can still be moved or removed. An example of this is “Greek politics before Andreas Papandreou”: this article does not need this much background information in its own section as this inforamtion is in other Wikipedia articles. If anything is necessary to understand Papandreou’s actions or part of his biography, it can be added to the article where it is relevant. Otherwise, this is off-topic and not necessary to understand Papandreou’s biography in a Wikipedia article; if I want to know this information, I can go to the relevant Wikipedia article.

There are also several paragraphs that are much too large, like “Catharsis (1989–1990)”, the third paragraphs in “Center Union rise and conflicts” and both paragraphs in “Foreign policy, NATO, Turkey”. Splitting these paragraphs (or cutting some information) will help readability. Z1720 (talk) 20:44, 20 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Z1720: Let me know if there are additional issues for me to address. Thank you again for your comments. A.Cython (talk) 22:24, 27 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@A.Cython: The article length is the only immediate issue that needs to be resolved. Happy to review once that is resolved. Z1720 (talk) 21:17, 8 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Z1720: Please do not get me wrong. I really want to get this done fairly and properly and I am very grateful for giving sufficient time for me to make changes. I am open to suggestions, however, I do not see at the moment a path to get to 8000 words without fragmentation and oversimplifications. Both of which are terrible choices in my mind this article. Please remember that the article reduced in size by 2965 words since this review began and I introduced additional subsection titles to improve organization.

As I mentioned above, this is a politician with a very long active & controversial role in politics (approximately 46 years) in a turbulent period of Greek history (dictatorship & invasion of Cyprus, where might be blamed for both, and under his leadership 2x near national bankruptcies, explosion of foreign debt, a constitutional crisis, mega-corruption scandals, etc.), while still remembered positively by half the Greek population. Each one of these events needs to be covered and assessed the impact of his actions as covered by historians etc. For this to be done properly it takes words, many of them. Of course, we need to follow WP style and maximize the readability, but I do not see at the moment how to cut further.

From WP:CANYOUREADTHIS: There are times when a long or very long article is unavoidable, though its complexity should be minimized. For reasons that I have explained above, I believe this is article will be longer than usual. I do hope that I have done everything I could to minimize the length and keep it as concise and as organized as possible. Specific suggestions are always welcomed, though my priority is to keep an accurate depiction of this guys life and actions rather than obeying an arbitrary word limit. Indeed, sometimes rules cause more damage that helping, Wikipedia:Ignore all rules. I hope you understand. A.Cython (talk) 04:59, 9 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@A.Cython: IAR doesn’t apply here. While this person has a long and important career, a long article makes it more difficult for readers to understand the most important aspects of his life. I have worked to cut down large articles before, most recently in Shanghai and Beyonce. I will review the article later (probably by the beginning of next week) and make suggested cuts as well as post other ideas for improvements. If you disagree with a cut, feel free to revert it but please post on this page why you think the cut should stay in the article. Please also apply some of the ideas to other parts of the article, as a stricter criteria of what to include in the article will help make decisions on what to keep. WP:REDEX is also a great resource on writing concisely: while this applies to FA articles, this is still useful for GAs. Z1720 (talk) 12:30, 9 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Z1720: Thank you for understanding. I will try one more time before Monday to make another reduction after which I will await for your detailed review and suggested improvements. A.Cython (talk) 17:41, 9 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

After some thought, I ended up with necessary step of fragmenting the article. I moved the subsections on “Foreign Policies” and “Economic Policies” to new articles: Economic policies of Andreas Papandreou & Foreign policy of Andreas Papandreou. The word count stands now at 10285 words. A.Cython (talk) 16:52, 12 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Z1720: I also merged the “Education”, “Healthcare”, “Social reconciliation” and “Elevation of women” under one subsection where the various reforms are summarized. The old text is moved to a new article Social reforms of Andreas Papandreou. I hope the last changes by fragmentation are in the right direction (word count is 9619). I have also created and added a sidebar template to ease navigation. I will await your input and changes.A.Cython (talk) 17:46, 14 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Z1720: After another fragmentation the current article stands at 8951 words. I do not think it can go further down. Let me your thoughts. I also would appreciate if you could provide specific review comments. Thank you. A.Cython (talk) 23:11, 16 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Z1720: If you have told me two weeks ago if I would reach the article to 8237 words, I would not believe you. Anyhow, it is done and I hope no damage has been done in the process. I am not going to touch the article so that you can perform the review with a stable version of the article. I know that you must be busy.A.Cython (talk) 03:45, 29 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@A.Cython: Thank you for doing this. I have seen your fantastic work on my watchlist, but unfortunately I’ve been busy with real life and wiki stuff so I haven’t been able to comment. Please ping when this is ready for me to review and I will take a look. Feel free to post any questions below and I will try to answer quickly. Z1720 (talk) 12:58, 29 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Z1720: Go ahead with the review. My last dozen edits were minor and I doubt I could make any further reductions. As I said I know that you are busy so there is no stress about it. Take your time to provide a thorough review. The reason that I say this is because your comments will also help me to finalize a number of associated articles for future GANs. I would only request to let me know your approximate timeline (i.e., weeks or months) so that I would be prepared to address your comments and make the necessary changes. Again thank you in advance for your input. A.Cython (talk) 18:02, 31 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I am copyediting the article as I review it: please feel free to revert anything you feel is not an improvement, but please note it below so that it can be discussed. Some comments below:

• “Academic career” states that he worked at York University, but “Junta and exile (1967–1974)” says he worked at University of Toronto. These are different universities: please review the sources to determine which he actually taught at.
  • [A.Cython] It is York university at Toronto. I made the necessary change in the text [1].
• “Foreign leaders agreed with Karamanlis on a plan for Greece’s entry to the EEC.” needs a citation
  • [A.Cython] I added a citation [2].

Note to self: stopping at “Social reforms”. I will continue this later. Z1720 (talk) 03:01, 2 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I am going through your changes. No complains though it might take some time to settle in mind. Overall they are great. I added above my actions in tackling your comments.A.Cython (talk) 03:37, 2 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

• Most of the second paragraph of “Papandreou in opposition (1990–1993)” is about Mitsotakis’s initiatives, which is off-topic for this article. I would rephrase this section to focus on what Papandreou did during this time (including which policies Papandreou opposed and how he did so).
  • [A.Cython] I admit that this seems going off topic, but I think it essential to show how under Mitsotakis many of Papandreou’s initiatives from the populist era were reversed. The catharsis era (i.e., the reversal) was rather pivotal moment in Greece, which continued into Mitsotakis short term. At least the economic policies and austerity need to be mentioned because Papandreou continued these policies with minor alterations after his return to power. So when I mentioned later on that Papandreou continued the austerity measures of Mitsotakis the reader needs to aware of them. I am open to suggestions on how it is best to be described.

• “In April 1994, Papandreou visited the United States to meet with President Clinton, who had recently recognized the new republic, but failed to make any progress” failed to make progress on what?
  • [A.Cython] I meant the naming dispute with the northern neighbor. While US recognized the existence of the country as an entity, the naming issue still was an issue. The issue was eventually resolved in the Prespa agreement in 2018. My change is here here

Pausing at “Governance and political features” Z1720 (talk) 18:00, 2 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

FYI: I also made the following changes (I will address your comments, give me 10-20 mins):

• Added back the references for the population decline. While I am ok with the leaving out the extra explanation, I think the references should stay for the curious reader who wants to better understand the meaning of “”long-term population decline”. See my change here.

More below:

• “His centralized control began to erode after the Koskotas scandal.” needs a citation
  • I added a note that explains the statement supported by two references, see here.

There’s lots of statements in the lead that I could not find in the article body. While this text is cited, it really should be in the article body if it is to be included here. Here are the statements that I could not find in the article body:

• “which resulted in Greece earning the reputation of Europe’s “black sheep.””
  • [A.Cython] I added a brief statement with sources to support this, see here.
• “He transformed Greece’s post-junta liberal democracy into a populist democracy that continues to be popular after his death.”
  • [A.Cython] I added the following here.
• “His eldest son, George Papandreou, became the leader of PASOK in February 2004 and served as prime minister from 2009 to 2011.” (body mentions that he became prime minister in 2009, but not other details.)
  • [A.Cython] The user Bill L. Hal added some material on George Papandreou legacy [3]. I also added the influence of Papandreou on another Greek prime minister [4], which would reinforce how Papandreou has remained popular in the Greek minds as stated in the lead.

This finishes reading through the article. More checks to follow (image, source). Z1720 (talk) 19:26, 2 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Some of these statements were supported in the long version of the article, but with the moving of material to other articles might have broken them. If it is ok I will include brief statements to support what is mentioned in the lead.A.Cython (talk) 19:39, 2 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

• “File:Charilaos Florakis 2.jpg”: No author information, and the image seems to be from a random website. How do we know the website had the proper copyright to post this?
  • [A.Cython] This one seems to be challenging. I removed it ([5]).
• “File:TWA Flight 847 Captain John Testrake with hijacker in Beirut.jpg”: source is a broken link.
  • [A.Cython] I updated the file’s information by providing an archived version of the original file, see here [6].
• “File:Drapeau de l’Organisation révolutionnaire du 17-Novembre.svg” source is a broken link.
  • [A.Cython] Provided an alternative source for the figure, see here: here
  • [A.Cython] Alternatively, we can the other flag found in Wiki Commons which I also had to update [7]
• File:TWA Flight 847 Captain John Testrake with hijacker in Beirut.jpg and File:Grave of Andreas Papandreou.jpg: recommend using upright per MOS:UPRIGHT
  • [A.Cython] Introduced upright to the figure, see here.

Captions are fine. All images checked. Z1720 (talk) 22:07, 2 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Let me know if I adequately addressed your comments above and if there are any other comments that need my attention. Thank you. A.Cython (talk) 18:22, 9 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Z1720 I was wondering if could let me know the status of the review and if there are anything pending issues that need to be addressed by me. I understand that the review can take longer, but an approximate timeline would be helpful. Happy Thanksgiving. A.Cython (talk) 14:25, 24 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

• @A.Cython: I am sorry for the delay. I have been procrastinating on this a little bit. Below is a source check, and I’ll do another prose check in a few moments.

These passages contain citations generated with the Veracity user script. I then checked the sources that I could, including finding versions on archive.org. If there were no concerns, I put a green plus. Concerns are indicated with a question mark. Z1720 (talk) 02:54, 26 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Reference #	Letter	Source	Archive	Status	Notes
He obtained a divorce from his spouse in 1951 and married Chant later that year. They had three sons and a daughter. Papandreou also had, with Swedish actress and TV presenter Ragna Nyblom [sv], a daughter out of wedlock, Emilia Nyblom, who was born in 1969 in Sweden.
19		Greek Reporter Jun. 2014.
39	a	Mouzelis 1978, p. 126.
Papandreou became the target of ultra-rightists who feared that his nearly 80-year-old father would win the next election, but Andreas would be the actual focus of power in the party.
52		CIA report, Greek political scene.			Recommend adding page nnumbers
Papandreou returned to Greece after the fall of the junta in 1974, during metapolitefsi. The dominant and leading political figure in Greece was Karamanlis with the New Democracy political party; Papandreou continued to have the stigma of past events. On 6 August 1974, Papandreou dissolved PAK in Winterthur, Switzerland, without announcing it publicly.
70		The Greek Herald Sep. 2020.
the oil crisis in 1973 and 1979, which negatively affected the Greek economy,
79	a	Larrabee 1981, p. 164.		❓	Could not verify in source
Despite efforts to appease the military, Papandreou struggled with discipline as two so-called “readiness exercises” in 1982 and 1983, both followed by forced resignations, were likely failed coup attempts.
112		Danopoulos 1985, p. 94.
113		Karakatsanis 1997, p. 294.
Despite Papandreou’s campaign promise to immediately remove U.S. military bases from Greece once in power, the country remained firmly within NATO. This reversal required navigation between domestic expectations—shaped by over a decade of anti-American rhetoric—and geopolitical realities, as removing the bases would have elevated Turkey’s strategic value within the NATO alliance. In the 1983 agreement, all four U.S. bases established since 1952 remained in Greece for an additional five years, accompanied by increased military aid—but no guarantees against Turkish aggression.
119		Bellou, Couloumbis & Kariotis 2003, pp. 100–101.
underfunding, declining standards, and politicization of schools led to quality issues.
128	b	Clogg 2013, p. 181.
Sartzetakis faced tense parliamentary votes, with opposition leader Mitsotakis accusing Papandreou of violating constitutional protocols.
158		Clogg 1985, pp. 108–109.
Greece signed the Single European Act in February 1986, which aimed to create a single EEC market by 1992 through deregulation and reduced state intervention.
Papandreou sought this agreement to improve his image as a man of peace.
181		Clogg 1993, p. 185.
A former head of EYR appointed by PASOK claimed that none of these activities would have been possible without the prime minister’s approval, implicating Papandreou.
212		Samatas 1993, pp. 45–46.
Although Mitsotakis’s New Democracy secured 43%, it was insufficient to form a government. Papandreou’s last-minute change of the electoral vote law required a party to win 50% of the vote to govern independently.
118	c	Clogg 2013, p. 196.		❓	Says they won 44% of the vote
Mitsotakis sought to repair relations with the U.S., which were damaged under Papandreou,
231		Bellou, Couloumbis & Kariotis 2003, pp. 100–102.
by signing a defense cooperation agreement in 1990,
232		Bellou, Couloumbis & Kariotis 2003, p. 102.
Papandreou’s authority within PASOK was nearly absolute, with critics labeling him as authoritarian.
256		Clogg 2013, p. 169.		❓	Could not verify that critics labeled him as authoritarian, though I looked in the 2002 edition
PASOK often dismissed incidents as American conspiracies, or that the terrorists were freedom fighters.
286		Kaplan 1994, pp. 271–273.

I will address the concerns mentioned above.

• Larabee p. 164 (provides the status of the Greek economy) Chief among these was the deterioration of the Greek economy after 1978. This slowdown manifested itself above all in a decline in the rate of growth, which dropped from 6.4 per cent in 1978 to 1.6 per cent in 1980; a precipitous rise in inflation, which averaged 25 per cent in 1980-1981; and a growing balance of payments deficit. In addition, public dissatisfaction with the degree of inefficiency and corruption within the state bureaucracy continued to increase. However, now that read it again, it does not link the status of the Greek economy to the oil crisis of the 1970s so I removed it.

• “Although Mitsotakis’s New Democracy secured 43%,” I changed it to 44% to be in agreement with the source.

• “authoritarian” : I provided the quote from the book (emphasis added): Clogg 2013 p. 169: the rather ineffective anti-junta resistance group directed from abroad by Papandreou, and another left-of-centre resistance group, Democratic Defence, many of whose members were soon to rebel against Papandreou’s authoritarian leadership. PASOK’s performance (14 per cent) in the 1974 election was a considerable achievement, given that Papandreou had no pre-existing organisation on which to base his new party. You can verify in Google Book preview here. A.Cython (talk) 03:26, 26 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]