Talk:Monica Seles: Difference between revisions

 

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::::We follow the sources. Multiple sources, six in total, from six different countries, describe her as Serbian-American. Your comment concerns a technicality, we can fix that. I have presented the sources, and removing them would violate BLP policy. Please show good faith and restore them. Yugoslavia is long gone, and modern sources identify Seles as Serbian-American for multiple reasons. Please do not edit-war over properly sourced information. — [[User:Sadko|<span style=”color:#CC6600;”>Sadko</span>]] [[User talk:Sadko|(words are wind)]] 11:54, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

::::We follow the sources. Multiple sources, six in total, from six different countries, describe her as Serbian-American. Your comment concerns a technicality, we can fix that. I have presented the sources, and removing them would violate BLP policy. Please show good faith and restore them. Yugoslavia is long gone, and modern sources identify Seles as Serbian-American for multiple reasons. Please do not edit-war over properly sourced information. — [[User:Sadko|<span style=”color:#CC6600;”>Sadko</span>]] [[User talk:Sadko|(words are wind)]] 11:54, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

:::::At least one of those ‘sources’ were opinion pieces opining on Seles’ identity ”given” the ambiguity, and did ”not” resolve to identifying her as Serbian, and none of them met Wikipedia’s notability guidelines. Further, even if reliable sources identified Seles as literally Serbian, there’s a conversation to be had with reconciling them with reliable sources that mention it’s incorrect to identify her as Serbian.

:::::At least one of those ‘sources’ were opinion pieces opining on Seles’ identity ”given” the ambiguity, and did ”not” resolve to identifying her as Serbian, and none of them met Wikipedia’s notability guidelines. Further, even if reliable sources identified Seles as literally Serbian, there’s a conversation to be had with reconciling them with reliable sources that mention it’s incorrect to identify her as Serbian.

:::::However, all this is besides the point. [[MOS:CONTEXTBIO]] gives direction on how to identify someone like this. She played for Yugolavia and America and is most notable for playing for Yugoslavia and America. She never played for an discreet, independent Serbia. Serbia is incidental to Seles’ career, and simply isn’t consequential enough to mention in the opening paragraph, never mind the first sentence. [[User:Breadpachinko|Breadpachinko]] ([[User talk:Breadpachinko|talk]]) 16:11, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

:::::However, all this is besides the point. [[MOS:CONTEXTBIO]] gives direction on how to identify someone like this. She played for Yugolavia and America and is most notable for playing for Yugoslavia and America. She never played for an , independent Serbia. Serbia is incidental to Seles’ career, and simply isn’t consequential enough to mention in the opening paragraph, never mind the first sentence. [[User:Breadpachinko|Breadpachinko]] ([[User talk:Breadpachinko|talk]]) 16:11, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

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The English sources I’ve been finding spell her parents names Karolj and Ester. Places like this NY Times source and this Biography.com source. ESPN also spells it that way so this appears to be the English spelling of her parents names. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:39, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Per request and found source, I added the Hungarian spellings in parenths. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:09, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It would be good to obtain better profile photo for Mrs. Seles. Jgwikid (talk) 07:03, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is just my own opinion, but I would find it a bit more fitting if the Tennis Career section were split into three separate sections: “Career (1990-92)”, “1993 Stabbing Attack”, and “Career (1995-2008)”.

Sadly, that stabbing was bad enough that it formed an important dividing line between two very different portions of her tennis career. The second portion was always hampered by her lingering injuries from the ‘93 attack.

So I think it would make more sense to have separate sections for before and after that sad incident when that lunatic attacked her in ‘93.

But again, that’s purely my own opinion, and you don’t have to agree with me.

Thegoldenconciseencyclopediaofmammals (talk) 17:05, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I suspected this would be a bit contentious. An edit I made had already been reverted once, (in a manner that looks to me like a violation of AGF), that amends the opening sentence from identifying Seles as “Serbian–American” to “Hungarian–American”. Prior to an edit of this article in the last year or two, I’ve simply never heard of anyone identifying Seles as explicitly Serbian, and I doubt the sources exist for such a thing. An interview on her own website shows the subject of the article considers herself something between her American citizenship and her Hungarian ethnic history https://monicaselessite.com/monica-seles-a-conversation-with-harold-bubil/; ESPN has https://www.espn.com/espnw/news-commentary/story/_/id/9226901/espnw-stabbing-stole-monica-seles-tennis-career the following; “It was theorized at first that the crime was political in origin because of what many misidentified as Seles’ Serbian roots (in fact, her family, which had lived in Florida since 1986, was Hungarian but came from a village near Bosnia, controlled by Serbs).”

Seles was born in Yugoslavia and currently lives in America. Per the article she holds American and Hungarian citizenship. MOS:Biography has some guidance that doesn’t really read to me as supporting identifying Seles as Serbian. In case I’m wrong, I took a look at some other articles. Many cases seemed difficult to map one-to-one since they don’t have instances of larger countries that no longer exist anymore, but the well-known case of Nikola Tesla seemed more than a little comparable. In Tesla’s case, although Tesla was born in what is today Croatia, Wikipedia treats this as incidental, deferring to his ethnic identity. In Seles’ case, I should think that should map to Wikipedia treating the fact that Seles was born in what is today Serbia as incidental, and defer to her ethnic identity, and would be surprised to see it any other way. Breadpachinko (talk) 17:25, 17 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

She never represented Hungary during her career, so your changes are disruptive and unsourced. So first present a source where she won any title for Hungary before calling her Hungarian tennis player, and yes she did represented Serbia, by your logic we can than change the title of Natasa Janic a call her a Serbian canoer even though she represented Hungary, as for Monika Seles ethnicity it is already presented in the body of the article. Those are 2 different topics. Theonewithreason (talk) 17:39, 17 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

My source was provided in the description of the edit, which you violated AGF by reverting as “rv new account disruptive editing”. On the other hand, there is no source for your claim that Seles ever played a tennis game representing Serbia. Breadpachinko (talk) 17:42, 17 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Umm really and what happened after 1991 after the break up of Yugoslavia did she represented Hungary ? Nope Did she even once played under Hungarian flag? Nope. Your source only explains that she received Hungarian citizenship after her playing career, and that she is ethnic Hungarian which is already in the body of the article.Theonewithreason (talk) 17:46, 17 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

“Monica Seles never represented Hungary” does not equate to Monica Seles playing for Serbia. She played for Yugoslavia. Wikipedia is not Britannica, but that they identify Seles as “a Yugoslavian-born retired American professional tennis player” is instructive in terms of understanding how she has been understood and described by people up until this Wikipedia article was edited a year ago to identify her as Serbian. While I believe the edit last year was in good faith, your disruptive reverts and argumentative contributions here violate AGF. Breadpachinko (talk) 18:01, 17 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Well one thing what it doesn’t say that she is Hungarian tennis player this is your wp:or statement, because she never played for Hungary you still didn’t provide any source that confirms your claims also the source you presented and also what you mentioned here that she was born in Serb controlled Bosnia territory is unsourced and apsolute fallacy, she was born in Novi Sad a city in Serbia. I think that you dont understand the difference between ethnicity and citizenship. Theonewithreason (talk) 18:05, 17 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Monica Seles is ethnically Hungarian and holds Hungarian citizenship. According to sources I’ve already provided;

1. It is a misidentification to identify Monica Seles as Serbian, and

2. Monica Seles played for Yugoslavia (not Serbia).

There is at least some conflation on your part going on; the rationale you’re arguing is something to the effect of anyone with Yugoslavian citizenship is necessarily to be identified Serbian? With respect, however, the reader is not going to be concerned about you or your argument, but reading a Wikipedia article which has a description of its subject that matches how its sources describe the subject. Breadpachinko (talk) 18:12, 17 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

You still didn’t provide any source in which she represented Hungary during her career, also try using your answers not Ai generated. Theonewithreason (talk) 18:14, 17 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

My answers are not AI generated and you have no reason to accuse me as such. I’ll ask you to strike that from your comment as a good-faith gesture that would help lower the temperature here and lead to a constructive debate/conversation, rather than you continuing to fling accusations at me. Breadpachinko (talk) 18:19, 17 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

You keep avoiding the main issue here, so let me repeat, since you changed the description that Monika Seles is Hungarian -American tennis player please provide the source in which part of her career she represented Hungary. And why is Serbian or Yugoslavian description now omitted since she not just represented Yugoslavia her home country not just before the breakup but after the breakup, this is all well sourced in the article. however how many titles did she won under Hungarian flag and when did she play under Hungarian flag. Please provide a source. Theonewithreason (talk) 18:26, 17 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

‘(Resetting inline responses here.)’ When sources are already provided and counterparty continues to insist no sources are provided, I’m really not sure if I’m obliged to continue to humor it, so the I have reported this to the noticeboard. Focusing on the article itself, the main issue would be whether to identify Monica Seles not as Hungarian-American or Serbian-American, but whether to identify Monica Seles as Hungarian-American or Yugoslav-American. Alternatively, some reformulation of the lede might actually be more appropriate. Breadpachinko (talk) 18:45, 17 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

The source you presented says nothing about he issue I have mentioned, in fact this source says absolutely nothing about your claims https://monicaselessite.com/monica-seles-a-conversation-with-harold-bubil/; ESPN has https://www.espn.com/espnw/news-commentary/story/_/id/9226901/espnw-stabbing-stole-monica-seles-tennis-career the following and the other one says direclty that she was born in Serbia. so your claims are wp:or you still haven’t provide a source that says that she represented Hungary in any part of her career because she did not, look at the article there are a lot more sources confirming this. Her ethnicity is mentioned in the body of the article. It os obvious you are avoiding the question, please provide a source in which states that she played for Hungary. Theonewithreason (talk) 18:49, 17 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

The second source you linked is one which I already linked, but again it says “It was theorized at first that the crime was political in origin because of what many misidentified as Seles’ Serbian roots“. Sources explicitly state that identifying Seles as Serbian is misidentifying Seles’s identity. I have never claimed Seles played for Hungary, and I do not follow your implication that we must find a source identifying Seles as playing as Hungarian to identify her as Hungarian. If the below suggestion from the administrator of MOS:CONTEXTBIO is to be taken at face value, then I would understand you are arguing to identify Seles as Yugoslav-American. Your disruptive reverts did not match that. Breadpachinko (talk) 18:59, 17 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

My disruptive edits ? Please read WP:ONUS and WP:CIVILITY. Regards Theonewithreason (talk) 19:06, 17 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

I don’t know the point of suggesting people read things you haven’t read yourself. At any rate, can you clarify your position – do you believe that the opening sentence of the article should identify Seles as Yugoslav-American? Breadpachinko (talk) 19:13, 17 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Administrator comment: Article protected after it was restored to the status quo before disputed edits within the past 48 hours. Yue🌙 (talk) 18:37, 17 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

MOS:CONTEXTBIO may also be relevant to this discussion. Yue🌙 (talk) 18:39, 17 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Disruptive counterparty in the conversation is unlikely to continue to engage in the conversation to reach consensus; after violating 3RR (and a fourth edit while logged out) which resulted in administrators locking the article to its previous state, they have reached their “wincon”. Administrators have been willing to provide me advice about various methods of arbitration to pursue counterparty, which is incidental and unhelpful to the current state of this article – it has an opening sentence that is at odds with the body of the article and the sources of the article. Rather than advice about ANI or reporting 3RR or any such, I would like to see someone provide advice on how to form a constructive consensus on amending the opening sentence of the article, which currently describes her as “Serbian-American”. However;

– Monica Seles was born in Yugoslavia.

– Monica Seles is ethnically Hungarian.

– Monica Seles holds American and Hungarian citizenship.

– Monica Seles currently lives in America.

– Monica Seles is best known as a tennis player representing Yugoslavia, and in at least one instance, the United States of America.

Since I struggle to understand how anyone looks at the above – Yugoslavia, Hungary, America, Hungary, America, Yugoslavia, America – and concludes this resolves to identifying Monica Seles as Serbian-American, I’d like someone to advise on how to amend the article to reflect reality or else pursue this themselves, since as per administrators I’m apparently not permitted to edit articles with factual information unless willing to accept undue bureaucratic onus to pursue disruptive counterparty above. Breadpachinko (talk) 21:37, 17 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

@ToBeFree @Yamla Hey chiefs, where we at? There was much vim and vigor with which you all sought to throw templates, exercise power and tell me I am to be burdened with various arbitration methods. Where is the energy when it comes to, you know, helping me fix the article? As I said, having achieved a kamikaze wincon, counterparty has no incentive to work towards reaching a consensus. In less than two weeks, our blocks will mutually expire against the same time, and counterparty is going to presumably do the same thing again. So how does this article get fixed? Breadpachinko (talk) 22:18, 23 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Don’t ping me. I don’t edit this article. —Yamla (talk) 22:46, 23 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

In rejecting an appeal from me being able to fix this article, you said I had violated 3RR, EW and of particular consequence, you claimed: “nothing’s stopping you achieving consensus on the article’s talk page or seeking a third opinion or similar paths open to you”. I would assert that’s clearly untrue. You didn’t directly edit this article with a diff signed under your username, but you effectively did edit the article by undertaking administrative actions that maintain an unsourced edit to the article. Breadpachinko (talk) 00:02, 24 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

I’ve presented six different sources that claim otherwise. Please do not remove them without discussion. Thanks. — Sadko (words are wind) 01:19, 11 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Note that the article had a pre-existing notification that editors are apparently obliged to heed, all of which got lost in the above;

“She played for SFR Yugoslavia, FR Yugoslavia, and the United States, see discussion. Don’t change without discussion, please.”

The default state is to identify Seles as Yugoslav-American unless consensus via discussion concludes otherwise. Breadpachinko (talk) 04:22, 11 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]

One thing though. Wikipedia does not want sources in the lead unless there is no other choice (like the lead is the only place there’s text). The lead is a quick synopsis of the main body of prose. The Yugoslav–American thing must be talked about and sourced in the main body and then only mentioned without sources in the lead. I have done that but if someone wants to change how to source it there or change wording be my guest. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:23, 11 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]

We follow the sources. Multiple sources, six in total, from six different countries, describe her as Serbian-American. Your comment concerns a technicality, we can fix that. I have presented the sources, and removing them would violate BLP policy. Please show good faith and restore them. Yugoslavia is long gone, and modern sources identify Seles as Serbian-American for multiple reasons. Please do not edit-war over properly sourced information. — Sadko (words are wind) 11:54, 11 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]

At least one of those ‘sources’ were opinion pieces opining on Seles’ identity given the ambiguity, and did not resolve to identifying her as Serbian, and none of them met Wikipedia’s notability guidelines. Further, even if reliable sources identified Seles as literally Serbian, there’s a conversation to be had with reconciling them with reliable sources that mention it’s incorrect to identify her as Serbian.

However, all this is besides the point. MOS:CONTEXTBIO gives direction on how to identify someone like this. She played for Yugolavia and America and is most notable for playing for Yugoslavia and America. She never played for an discrete, independent Serbia. Serbia is incidental to Seles’ career, and simply isn’t consequential enough to mention in the opening paragraph, never mind the first sentence. Breadpachinko (talk) 16:11, 11 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]