Talk:Shepherd's pie: Difference between revisions

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:I think you’re probably tight, on balance. – [[User:SchroCat|SchroCat]] ([[User talk:SchroCat|talk]]) 04:50, 30 September 2025 (UTC)

::[[User:SchroCat|SchroCat]], thank you for that. I’m choosing to assume your fifth word is a typo. ”'[[User:Tim riley|Tim riley]][[User talk:Tim riley| talk]]”’ 13:23, 30 September 2025 (UTC)

:::~~EWven~~ at 0450, the sun’s over the yardarm somewhere in the world! [[User:Fortuna imperatrix mundi|”’—”']][[Special:Contributions/Fortuna imperatrix mundi|”Fortuna”]], [[User talk:Fortuna imperatrix mundi|imperatrix]] 13:32, 30 September 2025 (UTC)

::: at 0450, the sun’s over the yardarm somewhere in the world! [[User:Fortuna imperatrix mundi|”’—”']][[Special:Contributions/Fortuna imperatrix mundi|”Fortuna”]], [[User talk:Fortuna imperatrix mundi|imperatrix]] 13:32, 30 September 2025 (UTC)

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Bemusing that this point even needs be debated, but it seems I’m stuck in an edit war. The fact is that in contemporary usage, and in the vast majority of cases today, the distinction between Shepherd’s and Cottage pie is clear: Shepherd’s pie is made with lamb or mutton, while Cottage pie uses beef. I provided SIX reliable sources, including from the BBC, Jamie Oliver, Delia Online, etc, to support this.

These good faith edits were then reverted without any sources/reasoning to the contrary. Once fair sources are provided, the onus is on those with the less-commonly-supported views to raise it/justify it on the talk page. I do rather think it’s just a couple of idiosyncratic users (or perhaps the same individual) sitting on the page and trying to make it their own.

Worth noting, also, that many of the supposed printed references cited for this article are pre-war if not from the 19th-century, which I’d argue hold less weight than the good modern online references.Tomsega (talk) 17:24, 21 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Have you actually read the article? See the sortable table. The permutations of titles and main ingredients are multiple. Tim riley talk 17:32, 21 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Also I hope you will withdraw the suggestion of sock-puppetry, which I find offensive and hurtful. Tim riley talk 17:40, 21 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Well done for finally finding the talk page after so much edit warring. The whole article is filled with sources that say the exact opposite of what you are edit warring to include. In the mix of your “sources” are blog sites and dead links that say the opposite to what you are claiming. Before your disruption the page already made clear that there is an erroneous belief that the type of meat changes the name, but now we have a lead that differs from the rest of the article. The superior sources were in the article before the dross you added – food historians and modern chefs were included in the range of heavyweight references, not the lightweight unreliable nonsense you think counts as reliable. – SchroCat (talk) 17:36, 21 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I’ve read the article—including the table—but that actually reinforces my point. Much of this stems from the article leaning heavily on historical or archaic sources to define terms whose meaning still changing and has since evolved.

This isn’t about denying that naming conventions may have overlapped in the past. It’s about how the terms are used today. In modern usage—reflected in cookbooks, food media, and common understanding—Shepherd’s pie is made with lamb, Cottage pie with beef. That’s consistent across every contemporary source that it’s easy to cite.

Of course early references didn’t draw a clean distinction—when a dish is just emerging, definitions tend to be fuzzy. But that doesn’t mean a general encyclopaedia should continue to privilege origin-story sources over what’s now widespread and widely understood. Of course I can’t cite a survey showing 90% of British people getting the answer right on this. However, modern usage should take precedence here.Tomsega (talk) 17:42, 21 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Bit of a give-away your saying British people don’t get the answer right if they disagree with you. How dare they! Yours, Supposed Sock Puppet, Tim riley talk 17:46, 21 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I’m quite staggered by the hostile nature of the way in which you’re choosing to comunicate. I’m not sure why this is such a sensitive topic for you. As for immediately getting very defensive over “sock puppetry”, this to me seems to be quite suspicious in itself.

Bringing this back to the topic, would you like to comment anything in relation to what I’ve actually written in my previous comment? Tomsega (talk) 17:51, 21 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

This gets more and more offensive and contrary to WP:CIVIL. Kindly withdraw. Tim riley talk 17:53, 21 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Rather than calling offence for very little reason, would you kindly contribute to some sort of logical discussion/response? Tomsega (talk) 17:56, 21 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The terms today are probably intermingled more than they were in the past. It’s just a lie to claim the the article relies on historical or archaic sources, although they are certainly used where appropriate. There are a stack of modern chefs and up-to-date reference works that overwhelm the lightweight unreliable sources.Read WP:CIVIL and drop the name calling. – SchroCat (talk) 17:56, 21 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I want more than “drop the name calling” and want an apology and withdrawal by Tomsega for his or her repeated accusation of sock puppetry. As I have sixty featured articles to my name and SchroCat has, I think, even more, the libel that we are the same person abusing the Wikipedia system is shocking and reprehensible. – Tim riley talk 18:03, 21 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note I did attempt to bring this back to the topic at hand.

I’ve been a Wikipedia user for over a decade and, I must say, I’ve never encountered a user as sensitive to fair discussion, as dismissive to constructive criticism, or so unnecessarily hostile. With that said, I’ll be ending this conversation here. Tomsega (talk) 18:10, 21 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

So no apology for the libel, then? So be it. Glad you are ending the conversation. Tim riley talk 18:13, 21 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The link supposed to point to the Escoffier book source points to another book entirely. It also generates a red error message about mismatched dates (this may depend on Wikipedia settings, but will show on an edit preview). I have corrected this twice, but the incorrect link gets putting back. These are errors, not a matter of opinion to discuss. Best wishes, Pol098 (talk) 17:22, 12 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Correct link now in place. Tim riley talk 17:30, 12 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It’s now indeed correct. Pol098 (talk) 17:38, 12 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I added a picture of a shepherd’s pie and a cottage pie, sold, today, as distinct, distinguished by being made from lamb and beef. It was reverted as being in the wrong place; I put it in an appropriate section instead and it was again reverted. I get the impression that someone objects to any additional information not according to their own view; but this is simply illustrating a fact. It’s an adequate, rather than marvellous, picture, but very clear. It should be in the article to illustrate a case of current usage (both pies are before their sell-by dates as of this comment). Best wishes, Pol098 (talk) 17:28, 12 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The differences in usages are fully covered in the text and the table. Adding a cherry-picked image in support of one view is tendentious to say the least of it. We should strive to be neutral and factual. Tim riley talk 17:32, 12 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

“The differences in usages are fully covered”. The article’s introduction says “some writers insist that a shepherd’s pie should contain lamb or mutton, and a cottage pie, beef”. This gives the wrong impression, it’s weasel wording, and doesn’t accurately summarise the body (which doesn’t mention “some writers”‘ insistence), where you find ‘More recently “shepherd’s pie” has generally been used for a potato-topped dish of minced lamb’; pies are sold today (literally) which are distinct, you have to know the difference to buy the right one. The table does indeed show that the distinction tends to be made. Instead of introduction wording “some writers insist that a shepherd’s pie should contain lamb or mutton, and a cottage pie, beef” it would be more appropriate, less cherry-picked, and more in line with the body text to say “a distinction is sometimes made between a lamb shepherd’s pie and a beef cottage pie”. There may be a transatlantic issue; Martha Stewart in the US is the only case where shepherd’s pie is stated in the table to be just beef. The picture simply illustrates the body text about “more recent” usage. Best wishes, Pol098 (talk) 17:58, 12 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

There’s no “wrong impression”. It is some writers. Others insist that the terms are interchangeable. Both these are covered by the extant text. – SchroCat (talk) 18:20, 12 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It is noticeable, and depressing, how drive-by editors, and some more persistent ones, ignore what is already in the article. Possibly the second sentence of the “Shepherd’s pie” section was too far down for Pol0p8 to reach or perhaps s/he cannot cope with the fact that he/she may not in fact be the Keeper of the Sacred Truth about cottage/shepherd’s pie. We should attempt to keep the article neutral and balanced. Tim riley talk 18:43, 12 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I think I’ve got to the bottom of this; it is indeed a transatlantic issue. In the US a beef pie is often called a “shepherd’s pie”; in other countries it is not. Despite the waffle about “some writers”, the picture I posted shows 100% clearly that both lamb “shepherd’s pie” and beef “cottage” pie are on sale as of 2025 (my picture is from Morrisons, but all the big outlets, including Sainsbury’s, Tesco, and Marks & Spencer sell both beef cottage pie and lamb shepherd’s pie, and the purchaser is expected to know the difference): this is not cherry-picking. “Some writers” seems to include just about all well-known British food writers, including Simon Hopkinson, Lindsey Bareham, Tom Kerridge, Jamie Oliver, Clarissa Dickson Wright, Anthony Worrall Thompson, Michel Roux Jr., Rick Stein, Gordon Ramsay, Delia Smith, Mary Berry, Angela Hartnett, Nigel Slater, Nigella Lawson, and all the many recipes on the BBC Food Shepherd’s Pie search page all specify lamb (no cherry-picking: I have searched for cook’s names and “shepherd’s pie” and omitted none). The table shows that the one cook specifying only beef (rather than a mixture) is from the US. Felicity Cloake in her comparison of recipes comments that shepherd’s and cottage pie are different and deserve individual attention, that Martha Stewart (a US cook) uses beef, and that Cloake complained when, in the US, she was served “shepherd’s pie” made of beef. There are very few exceptions to this; Jane Grigson allows either beef or lamb in her shepherd’s pie recipe. Also, some recipes include both lamb and beef. While I look at sources and evidence, some people here seem to be determined Keepers of their personal Sacred Truth.

A comment above says vaguely “[Other writers] insist that the terms are interchangeable”. What writers say this? – list a few, as I did. If the writes who do say this are all US-based, then the article needs to clarify that there is clearly distinct usage in different places. I will eventually edit the article introducing the transatlantic difference in usage. Best wishes, Pol098 (talk) 08:55, 14 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

That’s your WP:OR and not suitable for inclusion. It will be reverted unless accompanies by a source that specifically states that there is an Engvar difference. If you want other sources that don’t differentiate between the meats, this, this, this and this are available, but I’m sure there are others, even if there are some out-dated views that try and push the old myth about the meats needing to be different.You can also take the snide and insulting references out of your comments. I am sure that I can be twice as obnoxious as you are trying to be, but it’s not a path that anyone wants to go down, so knock it off and keep it civil. – SchroCat (talk) 09:08, 14 June 2025 (UTC) (Added more refs – SchroCat (talk) 09:30, 14 June 2025 (UTC))[reply]

My comment about “Keeper of the Sacred Truth”, I think the only snide and insulting reference, was taken explicitly from a post about me by Tim riley; it’s not the tone I usually use; I don’t intend to be rude except in response to rudeness, and often not even then. There is obviously “a source that specifically states that there is an Engvar difference” which I can quote (it’s mentioned in my previous comment here); even in its absence the easily documented facts that virtually all English writers use lamb, and virtually all big English supermarkets sell both shepherd’s and cottage pies as distinct dishes are highly relevant. I have named cooks and shops; if you go to their recipes and product lists you’ll find confirmation. Can you cite any English cook or writer who uses “shepherd’s pie” for beef? I’d expect there might be the odd one (beyond Grigson, who accepts either), but I’ve found the statistics overwhelming. Best wishes, Pol098 (talk) 09:26, 14 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

There are references in my comments above, in addition to Grigson. – SchroCat (talk) 09:31, 14 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I haven’t seen any relevant references in comments signed by SchroCat, not even to to Grigson; I’d be interested in anything that contradicts what I have said, I am seeking accuracy, not to push any predetermined viewpoint. I was wrong in my initial assumption, that the two names were clearly distinct universally and everywhere. It is becoming more and more clear that the North American usage is basically “beef”, while elsewhere the difference is made (Aus & NZ make distinction, Canada doesn’t.) There are plenty of sources; one clear demonstration that the distinction is often made outside the US is that all UK supermarkets offer distinct shepherd’s and cottage pies. I’d suggest that editors of this article familiar only with their own usage (as I was) look into this distinction, and that the article should be modified to reflect it (with usual WP rules about sources etc.) (I know this whole issue is utterly trivial, a storm in a teacup about something unimportant, but let’s get it right.) Best wishes, Pol098 (talk) 10:20, 14 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It’s already correct, despite your POV. Unless you can come up with unimpeachable sources that specifically state what you are claiming, which you have so far failed to do, the status quo remains. – SchroCat (talk) 10:31, 14 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I’m not wasting too much time on this pointless brouhaha, but a quick search in the Internet Archive throws these up:

Hope this makes things clear. Tim riley talk 10:50, 14 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I’m not yet going to post, but here’s what AI says “The term shepherd’s pie is used differently in the United States and the United Kingdom. In Britain, shepherd’s pie traditionally refers to a dish made with lamb or mutton, while a similar dish made with beef is called cottage pie. The distinction is based on the type of meat used—shepherds tend to sheep, hence the name.

In America, however, the term shepherd’s pie is often used interchangeably for both versions, regardless of whether the dish contains lamb or beef. This likely stems from the fact that lamb is less commonly consumed in the U.S. compared to beef, leading to a generalization of the term. Over time, American cookbooks and food companies reinforced this usage, marketing frozen and ready-made versions as shepherd’s pie, even when made with beef.

So, if you’re ordering shepherd’s pie in the U.K., expect lamb. In the U.S., you might need to clarify whether it’s beef or lamb!” Pol098 (talk) 11:33, 14 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

And what did you make of the relevant recipes in the four British publications I referred you to? Tim riley talk 11:39, 14 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

You’re basing this nonsense on what AI says? FFS… what a waste of time. AI isn’t even remotely reliable for anything on this site. – SchroCat (talk) 11:47, 14 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I’ve been looking, to find out, not to confirm what I “know” (I don’t). I’ve found that the overwhelming majority of known British chefs who’ve published a shepherd’s pie recipe specify lamb, sometimes explicitly remarking that the meat must be lamb. No selection here: web search for [name] “shepherd’s pie”. I suppose I could add a few—or many—lines to the table, all I’ve found, without omitting those that don’t restrict themselves to lamb, of course. A few allow either lamb or beef (in particular Mrs Beeton, as traditional as you get), a very few beef only. The four examples in a previous comment do specify either lamb or beef. A UK academic paper from 2010 says “traditional lamb products, such as moussaka and shepherds pie, are often now made from cheaper beef”. I think the fact that all major supermarkets offer distinct shepherd’s (lamb) and cottage (beef) pies today is extremely relevant. There are sources (the AI I quoted probably used them) stating that the regional American usage differs from other places. I thought I had found an exception, a well-know British writer specifying beef, but it turned out that I didn’t know Robert Carrier was from the US, as is Julia Child, whose Italian shepherd’s pie uses beef. Best wishes, Pol098 (talk) 14:30, 14 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. I knew, and so I am quite certain did SchroCat, that Carrier and Child were American. I have referred to Child’s collaborative work with Simone Beck and Louisette Bertholle in more than thirty articles to which I have contributed. You are quite wrong that Mrs Beeton ever mentioned shepherd’s or cottage pie. (Perhaps you missed this fact, among others, in the existing text of the article: I recommend you read it some time.) Spurious editions of her work published after her death may have done so but no scrupulous student of culinary matters pays any attention to them. You have made your personal views very clear: let us see if you can command a consensus here in favour of them. Tim riley talk 14:52, 14 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hey guys, I tried to change this to the “Shepherdless pie” as is mentioned in the reference given but it was reverted. I don’t know where that name comes from, if it’s a typo of the listed name, but it isn’t supported in any reference linked to that entry as a vegetarian pie. It needs it’s own source if it is to continue to exist. And if it IS sourced, it is likely far more obscure than the other names for a vegetarian version of Shepherd’s pie so I am not sure why it is given prominence, especially with no source. Tinilmambor (talk) 03:06, 7 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It’s possible one of the entries had it previously, but I’ve added an additional reference. The source is one of over 200 books that use the name. – SchroCat (talk) 03:26, 7 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

A quick look in the Internet Archive brings up well over 100 books that refer to Shepherdess Pie and just 15 different books that mention Shepherdless Pie. Tim riley talk 06:44, 7 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

And how many do Gardener’s Pie and Forager’s Pie bring up? Because going by google results, which obviously have their own flaws, Gardener’s Pie has by far the most results. It is, as far as I know, the common name for it, but I do not know the wiki guidance when it isn’t the subject of the article and has alternative names listed, if there is any for which should be given highest prominence. Regardless, “Shepherdless” is merely a joke made in the first reference. I have no idea who chose that reference or why and have personally never come across that name either, just like shepherdess pie which is unnecessarily and strangely gendered. Tinilmambor (talk) 10:50, 7 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Well, there’s a reason the encyclopaedia isn’t only about ‘things I have heard of’, but one based on research of sources! I wouldn’t base anything on Google searches either – way too many unreliable sources can cause results to become skewed in different directions. Internet archive shows 93 hits for Gardener’s Pie, compared to 212 for Shepherdess Pie. There were zero references for Forager’s Pie. I’m not seeing which reference says Shepherdless “is merely a joke”. – SchroCat (talk) 11:02, 7 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Given that there are many more hits for gardener’s pie than for shepherdless pie I suggest we switch the order in which they appear in the third column of the table. And as the only cited source that mentions foragers’ pie gives it a plural possessive I suggest we follow suit. Tim riley talk 11:39, 7 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Seems a logical step… – SchroCat (talk) 12:15, 7 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Tim riley talk 12:38, 7 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Its called Shepherds pie in the same way we say ‘fools gold’ its a British tongue in cheek reference. We dont literally think its a meat pie ie with pastry as suggested here. 2A00:23C5:ACA5:CF01:5FB4:DDEB:1ECB:5386 (talk) 09:42, 11 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It’s been written by a British writer and most of the sources are British in origin. I’m struggling to see how or where the article says it’s a pie with a pastry top… – SchroCat (talk) 09:59, 11 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

To judge from the IP’s grammar and punctuation he/she is a young schoolboy or -girl and we should not be too severe in explaining that it would be a good idea to read the whole article before pontificating. Tim riley talk 18:59, 11 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Glancing at the article once again I wonder if the addition of Joan Schwartz to the table is an advantage. She is not notable enough to have a Wikipedia article, unlike everyone else in the table, and 26 runners seems a strangely arbitrary number rather than a round quarter-century as it was previously. Any thoughts, colleagues? Tim riley talk 11:39, 12 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Totally agree Tim; I’m not sure if WP:LISTN applies—not being a ‘standalone list’—but I think WP:WTAF should. —Fortuna, imperatrix 12:00, 12 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Somewhat tangential addition: by coincidence, I’m busy cooking the ragù, ragoût or ragoo for a shepherd’s pie chez Riley: just six ingredients: onions, beef, beef stock, tomato purée, Worcester sauce, red wine plus pepper. (Some would term that a cottage pie, but I was brung up to call it a shepherd’s pie, and who says shepherds don’t eat beef or that cows live in cottages?). I think we have correctly accounted for all the permutations in the present text of the article. Tim riley talk 15:54, 12 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I’ll remove Schwartz, as discussed above. Tim riley talk 07:21, 14 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I have added a sentence beneath the main table mentioning a couple of less usual variants. If it is considered too tangential to remain we can simply delete it. Tim riley talk 07:47, 29 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I have just run across this in Ayto’s Diner’s Dictionary: The basic duty of the shepherd’s pie has traditionally been to absorb beneath its potato topping the minced remains of the Sunday joint, bulked out at need with carrots, onions, more potatoes, etc. Its reputation, never exactly sparkling (all that watery shop-bought mince), nose-dived further with the introduction of instant mash. Latterly caterers and others have taken to calling it cottage pie (in fact a much more ancient term), in deference to the fact that the meat it contains is now so seldom mutton or lamb—whence the name shepherd’s pie – but usually beef (or textured vegetable protein). I find this interesting, but is “so seldom mutton or lamb” accurate? Not much mutton around these days, true, but Waitrose, M&S, Sainsburys, Tesco, the Co-op and Morrisons all sell ready-made “shepherd’s pies” (lamb) alongside “cottage pies” (beef).

Another sidelight: The Ivy‘s famous shepherd’s pie (recipe here) contains equal quantities of beef and lamb. (It also contains mushrooms, which is surely blasphemous.)

I’m not sure any of the above is worth including in the article, but worth a mention here, I hope. Tim riley talk 09:23, 29 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I think you’re probably tight, on balance. – SchroCat (talk) 04:50, 30 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

SchroCat, thank you for that. I’m choosing to assume your fifth word is a typo. Tim riley talk 13:23, 30 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Even at 0450, the sun’s over the yardarm somewhere in the world! —Fortuna, imperatrix 13:32, 30 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Talk:Shepherd’s pie: Difference between revisions

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