Talk:Sursock bronze/GA1: Difference between revisions

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::I couldn’t see where this part of the lead was supported in the main text.

::I couldn’t see where this part of the lead was supported in the main text.

*”it is also the largest Roman temple ever constructed”

::I couldn’t access the sources but our article says the [[Temple of Venus and Roma]] in Rome was larger. Can you provide an extract of what the modern sources say (the citation to Gordon 1921 is probably not worth using here)

*”Modern scholars dispute this claim, recognizing it as part of the broader syncretic tendencies of Roman historians”

::This is cited to “Dussaud 1920, p. 4; Seyrig 1929, pp. 346–347; Hajjar 1977b, p. 514”, while certainly “modern” compared to Macrobius, is there nobody more recent we can cite? Otherwise I might be tempted to rephrase this as “by the 20th century scholars…”

*I am limited in what I have access to (or can translate) from the sources but have checked the following:

::”The cult of Hadad found its way to Rome, where he was mentioned in three inscriptions on an altar uncovered on the eastern slopes of the Janiculum hill. The inscriptions read: “to the god Adados”, “to the god Adados of Libanos”, and “to the god Adados of the Mountaintop” are believed by British classical archaeologist and scholar Arthur Bernard Cook to suggest an increasing trend toward associating Hadad more with Jupiter, known as a mountain god, rather than with Helios”

:::Broadly checks out to Cook 1914, pp. 550–551; although he says it was Zeus that Hadad was equated with, rather than Jupiter, though I appreciate they were equivalent.

::that the “thunderbolt” was a symbol of Hadad is confirmed by Green 2003, p. 85.

::”The whip was also a symbol associated with Helios, who was often depicted holding a whip to drive his sun chariot across the sky”

::Could probably use a more recent reference than Heck 1851, p. 422.

::”by the 1st millennium BC, Hadad and Baal were regarded as distinct deities: Hadad was primarilly venerated by the Aramaeans, while Baal was venerated by the Phoenicians and other Canaanites”

:::Checks out to Hermann 1999, p. 132.

::That Gennaios was “a figure regarded as a solar deity venerated at Baalbek” checks out to Hill 1910, pp. XLVIII–XLIX, 9 but again, do we have a more modern source on the matter?

::”The variability of iconography of Jupiter Heliopolitanus may stem from limited access to the cult statue in its temple adyton and restricted opportunities to observe it closely outside occasional processions.”

:::Checks out to Kropp 2010, pp. 234–235.

*I didn’t pick up on any overly close paraphrasing form the sources I checked and Earwig flags nothing of concern

===3. Broad in its coverage===

===3. Broad in its coverage===

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Nominator: Elias Ziade (talk · contribs) 15:45, 9 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Dumelow (talk · contribs) 11:53, 19 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Happy to take a look at this one – Dumelow (talk) 11:53, 19 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

1. Well-written

Criteria: the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct; and it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.

The cult of Jupiter Heliopolitanus

• “Jupiter Optimus Maximus Heliopolitanus (Latin: Iovi Optimo Maximo Heliopolitano; shortened IOMH) was a syncretic supreme deity worshipped in the Great Temple of Baalbek, located in modern-day Lebanon.”

I would link syncretic and Baalbek here at least

• “While a number of scholars propose that Baal was an indigenous Canaanite deity whose cult was identified with or absorbed aspects of Hadad’s”

“a number of scholars” might fall foul of MOS:AWW, can we be more specific?

• Do we know when the worship of Baal-Hadad arose? Otherwise the first mention of any dating information is at the end of the first paragraph (1st millennium BC)

• “After the death of Alexander the Great in 323 BC, the Diadochi—his generals, family members, and companions”

Worth a link to Diadochi?

• “During the Hellenistic period,[a] the cult of Baal-Hadad in Baalbek acquired a solar character”

Worth linking Solar deity?

• “University of Nottingham scholar Andreas Kropp challenges the established notions of a solar syncretism of Jupiter Heliopolitanus and his identification with the Semitic Hadad”

Link University of Nottingham?

We’ve not mentioned “Semitic” before, can this be introduced?

• “The Hellenistic overlords likely conflated Baal-Hadad with their sun god Helios, a storm god often depicted brandishing a whip, symbolizing lightning.[11] The whip was also a symbol associated with Helios, who was often depicted holding a whip to drive his sun chariot across the sky”

The two sentences here about Helios being associated with whips feel a bit redundant, can they be combined?

• “Modern scholars dispute this claim, recognizing it as part of the broader syncretic tendencies of Roman historians.”

“modern scholars dispute” again might have issues with WP:AWW.

I also wasn’t clear whose claim they were disputing. Macrobius on the statue or the Egyptian priests?

• ” It maintain however good relations with the princes, who held control over southern access for pilgrims coming from Palestine, Arabia, or Damascus”

“maintained” presumably?

• “The Temple of Jupiter Heliopolitanus in Baalbek was renowned in antiquity for its oracular functions and as a divination center”

Link oracle and Divination?

• “The cult of Heliopolitan Jupiter spread from this cultic center to far corners of the Roman empire”

Can we give any examples?

• “These include rites of divination and the oracular power of Jupiter, the dedication of hair to Venus Heliopolitana and the associated sacred prostitution, the prominence of astrology, ritual processions to the nearby ‘Aïn el-Gouë spring with the deposition of divine images in the sacred spring’s basins, liturgical banquets, ritual purification and hair shaving, the prohibition of pork, and the celebration of the Maiuma festival”

Could probably use some links. Eg. Venus (mythology), Sacred prostitution, astrology, ritual purification, Religious restrictions on the consumption of pork, Maiuma (festival)?

Identification and descriptions of the Heliopolitan Jupiter iconographic type

• “Some of the bronze statuettes replace the kalathos with a pschent, the Ancient Egyptian double crown, or a radiate crown as shown on miniature engravings.”

link radiate crown?

The mention of miniature engravings in relation to the radiate crown confused me here, are we saying they show it or the bronze statuettes, or both?

• “The god is often depicted donning his characteristic kalathos, a vase-shaped headdress that tapers at the base … Typically, he is depicted standing, wearing a kalathos (a basket shaped headdress that flares upward and outward from a torus-shaped base) … and an ependytes (a close-fitting dress) and an armor “

I don’t think we need to describe the kalathos twice (and slightly differently) in close succession

The “and” before “an ependytes” is superfluous I think?

Discovery

• ” The French archaeologist and then Deputy Curator of Louvre’s Department of Near Eastern Antiquities René Dussaud, writing in his 1920 monograph “Jupiter héliopolitain. Bronze de la collection Charles Sursock”, identified Baalbek as the discovery site”

I think needs a “the” before Louvre?

• “a location considered credible by historian Joseph Hajjar due to its association with two dedications to Heliopolitan Jupitear.”

Typo on the last word

Composition and description

• “the god is depicted standing on a cubic base measuring 5.5 cm × 5 cm (2.2 in × 2.0 in)”

Do we know the third dimension, if not which two of the three are these?

• “Two bulls, flank the effigy of the god, with the entire group resting on a rectangular base measuring 14.7 cm (5.8 in) wide, 12.7 cm (5.0 in) deep and 4.7 cm (1.9 in) high.”

First comma not needed

• “The front and back of deity’s armor is divided into square registers, with one to two registers per row.”

Not all of them are square, perhaps “rectangular” is better?

• “The third register also includes two registers featuring Mars wearing military cuirass with imbricated scales and a legionary’s shoulder piece, alongside Mercury with a caduceus and a winged helmet.”

This should be “third row”, I think, and not register?

• “These fields feature each a stylized thunderbolt”

Would read better to me as “each feature”

Interpretation

• “Hajjar offered an alternative hypothesis, referencing ancient texts that describe the simulacrum of Jupiter Heliopolitanus being carried on a ‘ferculum during processions before delivering oracles.”

Is the apostrophe before “ferculum” intended? It’s not used in the adjacent caption

Iconographical precedents

• “He adds that, while some iconographic elements, like grouped divine bust on the deity’s dress reflect artistic trends from the second century AD, others suggest greater antiquity, drawing similarity to a bronze in the Louvre (pictured).”

I think this should be the plural “busts”?

• “According to Bel, the planetary deities ornamentation reflects a Roman Imperial era conceptualization, in which Jupiter Heliopolitanus evolved into a cosmological, universal force, encompassing planetary motion, the passage of time, and possessing oracular abilities that enjoyed significant popularity during the imperial period”

You haven’t introduced Bel before, could use a short introduction

This feels like a complicated sentence that I don’t think I followed, is there any way it can be simplified for the layman?

Lead

• Felt a little long, I find a good length is around 300-400 words. Is there anything that can be trimmed, I thought perhaps the second and third paragraphs could be made more concise and combined?

• “Four-pointed stars etched next to Mars, Mercury, and Saturn to indicate their planetary nature, while Venus is flanked by a pair of stars, alluding to her dual aspects as ‘morning’ and ‘evening star’.”

Has an error in syntax

2. Verifiable with no original research

Criteria: it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline; reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose); it contains no original research; and it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism.

• “The Sursock bronze is modeled after the great statue of Jupiter Heliopolitanus as it stood in the Great Temple of Baalbek around the mid-second century AD”

I couldn’t see where this part of the lead was supported in the main text.

• “it is also the largest Roman temple ever constructed”

I couldn’t access the sources but our article says the Temple of Venus and Roma in Rome was larger. Can you provide an extract of what the modern sources say (the citation to Gordon 1921 is probably not worth using here)

• “Modern scholars dispute this claim, recognizing it as part of the broader syncretic tendencies of Roman historians”

This is cited to “Dussaud 1920, p. 4; Seyrig 1929, pp. 346–347; Hajjar 1977b, p. 514”, while certainly “modern” compared to Macrobius, is there nobody more recent we can cite? Otherwise I might be tempted to rephrase this as “by the 20th century scholars…”

• I am limited in what I have access to (or can translate) from the sources but have checked the following:

“The cult of Hadad found its way to Rome, where he was mentioned in three inscriptions on an altar uncovered on the eastern slopes of the Janiculum hill. The inscriptions read: “to the god Adados”, “to the god Adados of Libanos”, and “to the god Adados of the Mountaintop” are believed by British classical archaeologist and scholar Arthur Bernard Cook to suggest an increasing trend toward associating Hadad more with Jupiter, known as a mountain god, rather than with Helios”

Broadly checks out to Cook 1914, pp. 550–551; although he says it was Zeus that Hadad was equated with, rather than Jupiter, though I appreciate they were equivalent.

that the “thunderbolt” was a symbol of Hadad is confirmed by Green 2003, p. 85.

“The whip was also a symbol associated with Helios, who was often depicted holding a whip to drive his sun chariot across the sky”

Could probably use a more recent reference than Heck 1851, p. 422.

“by the 1st millennium BC, Hadad and Baal were regarded as distinct deities: Hadad was primarilly venerated by the Aramaeans, while Baal was venerated by the Phoenicians and other Canaanites”

Checks out to Hermann 1999, p. 132.

That Gennaios was “a figure regarded as a solar deity venerated at Baalbek” checks out to Hill 1910, pp. XLVIII–XLIX, 9 but again, do we have a more modern source on the matter?

“The variability of iconography of Jupiter Heliopolitanus may stem from limited access to the cult statue in its temple adyton and restricted opportunities to observe it closely outside occasional processions.”

Checks out to Kropp 2010, pp. 234–235.

• I didn’t pick up on any overly close paraphrasing form the sources I checked and Earwig flags nothing of concern

3. Broad in its coverage

Criteria: it addresses the main aspects of the topic; and it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).

I am not experienced in the field but I found no obvious gaps and the level of detail felt appropriate – Dumelow (talk) 07:00, 20 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

4. Neutral

Criteria: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.

No obvious issues with WP:NPOV – Dumelow (talk) 07:00, 20 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

5. Stable

Criteria: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.

Article moved to mainspace early September, there have been no major changes since and no evidence of dispute on the talk page – Dumelow (talk) 08:05, 20 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

6. Illustrated

Criteria: media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content; and media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.

• Image licenses all look to be appropriate

• Captions all contain material stated in the article or obvious from the image/source, except the altar series, which has a citation

• I think an image of the back of the object would be useful. I found myself referring to one to work out what the back of the dress looked like

---

Dumelow Thank you so much for taking the time to review this article. I hope it’s not too dry and that it was at least somewhat interesting to read! Your detailed comments are extremely helpful and I really appreciate how you pointed out style and contextual refinements. I’ll go through your notes carefully and make the adjustments you suggested. If there’s anything in particular you’d like me to clarify or expand on before you reach a final verdict, please let me know. I truly value the time and care you’ve put into this review. el.ziade (talkallam) 11:04, 20 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

No worries, it’s an area of history I don’t know much about so I found it quite an interesting read. I’ll try to complete the review against criteria 2 today. Feel free to disagree with any of my stylistic suggestions, by the way! – Dumelow (talk) 14:35, 20 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]