Template:Did you know nominations/Lady Jennifer (novel): Difference between revisions

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::::::OK, I’ve added another source that explicitly identifies company by its full name “John Strange Winter Toilet Preparations” and also identifies Stannard/Winter as the author of Lady Jennifer. [[User:LEvalyn|~ L 🌸]] ([[User talk:LEvalyn|talk]]) 20:17, 29 September 2025 (UTC)

::::::{{ec}} Yes, this really. My condition for possibly looking again at ALT3 was that the article and sourcing be brought in place to clearly verify it. As in, a source which explicitly mentions both Lady Jennifer and “John Strange Winter Toilet Preparations”, as well as telling us that the former cross-promotes the latter. It sounds like that hasn’t happened yet so we’re not ready to go with that one.  — [[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]] ([[User talk:Amakuru|talk]]) 20:20, 29 September 2025 (UTC)

::::::: I’m getting a little unclear on what the concern is. The hook is meant to summarize this information from the article: {{tq|With the novel, she included free copies of Comely Woman, a book of advice promoting her line of cosmetics products, John Strange Winter Toilet Preparations}}; since that’s wordy I thought “cross-promoted” conveyed the gist more concisely, but perhaps ALT04 is better for being more specific.

::::::: To spell out the sourcing, [https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-perthshire-advertiser-etc-a-novel/180232554/ this] says {{tq|A copy of the latest edition of “Comely Woman” will be enclosed with each signed copy of “Lady Jennifer”}}; [https://www.newspapers.com/article/stockport-advertiser-comely-woman/179154038/ this] spells out what ‘Comely Woman’ is, saying {{tq|Comely Woman by … Author of “Bootle’s Baby,” “Lady Jennifer,” etc. … tells how and why she invented the many now popular Toilet Preparations she has placed on sale of late years}} (and generally indicates that’s it’s a promotional brochure for her products), and [https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-daily-telegraph-the-john-strange-win/180469558/ this ad] and [https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-evening-news-your-boy-and-his-winter/182022949/ this ad] spell out that the product line was sold under the full name “John Strange Winter Toilet Preparations”; the latter also explicitly says that the products are sold by {{tq|the popular author of “Bootle’s Baby,” “Lady Jennifer,” etc., etc.}}. I am ”pretty sure” that the book included ads for the cosmetics line — I know it had 20 pages of advertisements for ”something” but I am still waiting on a library request to have confirmation of ”what”– but with the current sources maybe it’s better to say that the ”author” cross-promoted rather than the ”book” did. Really, I am open to any wording, or any hook. [[User:LEvalyn|~ L 🌸]] ([[User talk:LEvalyn|talk]]) 22:24, 1 October 2025 (UTC)

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Lady Jennifer (novel)

… that John Strange Winter’s novel Lady Jennifer was marketed with copies signed by Henrietta Stannard? Source: [1] [2]

5x expanded by LEvalyn (talk).
Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 20 past nominations.

~ L 🌸 (talk) 08:03, 23 August 2025 (UTC).

A 5x expansion has been verified by DYK check and I did not find any close paraphrasing. A QPQ has been verified and it is a complete review. The article is long enough for DYK purposes and meets the referencing guidelines.

However, the hook is problematic. Firstly, it is not directly stated in the article: nowhere does it say that it was “marketed with copies signed by Henrietta Stannard”. Second, even if the claim was mentioned, it doesn’t seem to actually be referenced. Thirdly, and most worryingly, even if those issues were addressed, the hook would not meet WP:DYKINT. The context here is that Winter is actually Stannard’s penname, but the average reader may not be familiar with either name, so the connection is lost. Even without the context, the hook does not seem very interesting if the reader is unfamiliar with Stannard and her work (FWIW I’ve never heard of her prior to this nomination).

You have done a good job of expanding the article, but to be honest, after reading it, I’m not sure if there’s actually anything here that’s workable. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:26, 28 August 2025 (UTC)

@LEvalyn: The nomination may be marked for closure if you are unable to respond or address the concerns. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:07, 31 August 2025 (UTC)

My apologies for the delay— my off-wiki life has been tumultuous this week. In the next few days I can look for an alternative hook; there may be something I can add to the article with the film adaptation. I personally don’t think the hook relies on knowing either name (she’s a completely obscure author) but I think it’s interesting that she basically makes her pseudonym useless (which I think the cited ad verifies); I may be able to come up with a better wording for that idea. Regardless I’d appreciate a few days to work on it, please, with my thanks for your thorough review. ~ L 🌸 (talk) 20:33, 31 August 2025 (UTC)

Narutolovehinata5, what do you think about ALT1: …that Henrietta Stannard autographed copies of John Strange Winter’s novel Lady Jennifer?

That phrasing is definitely verified by the ad, which has the headline Autographed Copies of John Strange Winter’s Latest Novel and says Mrs. Stannard (“John Strange Winter”) will be pleased to send a specially signed copy… My aim is to intrigue someone who has never heard of either name — I think it’s interesting that she’s a woman with a male pseudonym who is undermining that pseudonym with her marketing campaign.

Or, perhaps another angle is something like ALT2: …that Henrietta Stannard bundled her novel Lady Jennifer with promotional materials for John Strange Winter’s Toilet Preparations?

I’d have to beef it up in the article a bit but the mail-in autograph promo automatically gave a free copy of Comely Woman with every Lady Jennifer, and elsewhere I’ve seen info about how this book basically just sold her cosmetics line. ~ L 🌸 (talk) 20:04, 2 September 2025 (UTC)

Regrettably, I do not think this Stannard/Strange Winter angle will work out, as the main issue (that the hooks do not make sense or will not interest people who do not know either name or at least the context) remains. I understand what you’re trying to get to, but it’s not showing in the hook proposals, and given what is in the article, the angle just seems like a non-starter. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 22:16, 2 September 2025 (UTC)

You don’t think the cosmetics line part is any better? I didn’t think that one relied on the author’s names, and in fact we could remove Stannard’s name entirely, i.e., ALT3: … that the novel Lady Jennifer cross-promoted John Strange Winter’s Toilet Preparations? (Again, I’d be able to beef up the article properly for that if it seemed like an interesting angle.) I thought “Toilet Preparations” might also be an intriguing product name for a general audience. ~ L 🌸 (talk) 23:17, 2 September 2025 (UTC)

ALT3 is a bit of a weird one in that I’m 50-50. On the one hand, it doesn’t solve the “you must know who John Strange Winter” issue, but on the other hand, the name itself along with “Toilet Preparations” might be enough to raise attention. I’m undecided at this point, so I think it might be a good idea to ask for a second opinion from one of the usual DYK scrutinizers like RoySmith, Amakuru, Launchballer, etc. I should note that, if ever, only ALT3 is under consideration, and all the other hooks, particularly those involving the name Henrietta Stannard, are rejected. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:11, 3 September 2025 (UTC)

Comment: Most of the material in the film section belongs in the Lady Jennifer (film) article – I’m not sure the 5x expansion will stand after that is taken away. St Anselm (talk) 21:25, 2 September 2025 (UTC)

I wrote all of the film material after the 5x expansion so it’s not needed to meet that criteria. Also, I am in the process of merging the articles on the WP:PAGEDECIDE principle that there is no need to have two articles and a DAB for a topic with so little (relatively) to say. ~ L 🌸 (talk) 23:09, 2 September 2025 (UTC)

@Narutolovehinata5, LEvalyn, RoySmith, and Amakuru: I’m fine with ALT3.–Laun chba ller 12:07, 5 September 2025 (UTC)

Here since I was pinged above – personally I would not sign off on ALT3. As someone unfamiliar with the subject, the hook as written makes no sense to me. Who is John Strange Winter, and ehat are “Toilet Preparations” (particularly when rendered in title case like this)? And how exactly does the book “cross-promote” them? And then it’s not immediately obvious where in the article to look. The words “Toilet” and “cross-promote” don’t appear anywhere in the article and it turns out “Toilet Preparations” is actually “J. S. W. Preparations”. No offence to anyone, but IMHO it seems a little weak to me to premise the hook on a pun on the word toilet that doesn’t even appear in the article.

As an aside, I agree with the comment above that the film article should be redirected to this one, there isn’t enough content overall for two separate articles on these closely related topics at this time and WP:NOPAGE would apply for me. It’s a pity the WP:BLAR was reverted, it might have to go through AFD or a merge discussion on the talk page. Cheers — Amakuru (talk) 13:08, 5 September 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for weighing in, and thanks to Narutolovehinata5 for your patience with this one. With regret, I’ll withdraw the DYK. It’s the first time I’ve done a 5x expansion of a random historical book without turning up some gold, but they can’t all be winners. ~ L 🌸 (talk) 18:30, 5 September 2025 (UTC)

Though to be clear Amakuru, they really were called John Strange Winter’s Toilet Preparations! I just hadn’t clipped the source for the article yet. ~ L 🌸 (talk) 18:36, 5 September 2025 (UTC)

Hi @LEvalyn: thanks for the reply, and if you’re able to make the hook tally up with something in the article I’ll be happy to re-evaluate it… I haven’t looked at this in detail, but hopefully either way we can save something from this, no need to throw in the towel just yet! Cheers — Amakuru (talk) 19:25, 5 September 2025 (UTC)

That’s very kind, Amakuru. The article now says To promote the book, Stannard offered signed copies by mail order… With the novel, she included free copies of Comely Woman, a book of advice promoting her line of cosmetics products, John Strange Winter Toilet Preparations (with a wikilink to Toilet#Names to help solve the mystery of the name), and I’ve named the section “Publication and promotion” to make it easier to spot. To a certain extent I think “Who is John Strange Winter and what are ‘Toilet Preparations’?” is the “intrigue” I was hoping to raise– hopefully the article now has answers to those. Maybe some more compelling or clearer wordings:

ALT04: … that the romantic drama Lady Jennifer cross-promoted the product line of John Strange Winter Toilet Preparations? ~ L 🌸 (talk) 21:04, 5 September 2025 (UTC)

ALT05: … that the author of Lady Jennifer sold signed copies with a promotion for John Strange Winter Toilet Preparations?

and just as a reminder, we’ve been discussing: ALT03: … that the novel Lady Jennifer cross-promoted John Strange Winter’s Toilet Preparations?~ L 🌸 (talk) 21:04, 5 September 2025 (UTC)

@Narutolovehinata5: Do any of the above ALTs work, and is this approved? If not, what else needs to be done? Z1720 (talk) 23:37, 23 September 2025 (UTC)

Honestly I’m not really sure about this, so it might be better to ask another editor to sign this off. I have no opinion on ALT4/ALT5. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:58, 24 September 2025 (UTC)

@LEvalyn: I just went to verify ALT3, and I noticed that two of the four sources don’t mention Lady Jennifer, so whatever they’re being used to cite probably shouldn’t be in the article.–Laun chba ller 23:20, 27 September 2025 (UTC)

Launchballer, I took out one of them and re-arranged the others to indicate which part of the sentence they support. They’re all necessary to support the complete statement that With the novel, she included free copies of Comely Woman, a book of advice promoting her line of cosmetics products, John Strange Winter Toilet Preparations. ~ L 🌸 (talk) 20:40, 28 September 2025 (UTC)

@Launchballer: Note that Amakuru had objected to ALT3 earlier in the discussion, so that may need to be resolved first if you are considering approving it over the later proposals. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 19:15, 29 September 2025 (UTC)

I think “John Strange Winter Toilet Preparations” needs a source that mentions Lady Jennifer, otherwise it needs to come out of the article.–Laun chba ller 19:30, 29 September 2025 (UTC)

OK, I’ve added another source that explicitly identifies company by its full name “John Strange Winter Toilet Preparations” and also identifies Stannard/Winter as the author of Lady Jennifer. ~ L 🌸 (talk) 20:17, 29 September 2025 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Yes, this really. My condition for possibly looking again at ALT3 was that the article and sourcing be brought in place to clearly verify it. As in, a source which explicitly mentions both Lady Jennifer and “John Strange Winter Toilet Preparations”, as well as telling us that the former cross-promotes the latter. It sounds like that hasn’t happened yet so we’re not ready to go with that one. — Amakuru (talk) 20:20, 29 September 2025 (UTC)

I’m getting a little unclear on what the concern is. The hook is meant to summarize this information from the article: With the novel, she included free copies of Comely Woman, a book of advice promoting her line of cosmetics products, John Strange Winter Toilet Preparations; since that’s wordy I thought “cross-promoted” conveyed the gist more concisely, but perhaps ALT04 is better for being more specific.

To spell out the sourcing, this says A copy of the latest edition of “Comely Woman” will be enclosed with each signed copy of “Lady Jennifer”; this spells out what ‘Comely Woman’ is, saying Comely Woman by … Author of “Bootle’s Baby,” “Lady Jennifer,” etc. … tells how and why she invented the many now popular Toilet Preparations she has placed on sale of late years (and generally indicates that’s it’s a promotional brochure for her products), and this ad and this ad spell out that the product line was sold under the full name “John Strange Winter Toilet Preparations”; the latter also explicitly says that the products are sold by the popular author of “Bootle’s Baby,” “Lady Jennifer,” etc., etc.. I am pretty sure that the book included ads for the cosmetics line — I know it had 20 pages of advertisements for something but I am still waiting on a library request to have confirmation of what— but with the current sources maybe it’s better to say that the author cross-promoted rather than the book did. Really, I am open to any wording, or any hook. ~ L 🌸 (talk) 22:24, 1 October 2025 (UTC)

Lady Jennifer (novel)

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