Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Wlaak: Difference between revisions

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===17 September 2025===

====Suspected sockpuppets====

{{sock list|1=DavidKaf|2=Devi van velden|3=Aramean86|4=AramaicFuse|5=777network|6=Historynerd361|7=Aramaic777|8=TheArameanOfMidyat|tools_link=yes}}<!– Add more accounts or IPs to this template as needed –>

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*:Aramaic777 is subject to the original “all other accounts” being unrelated. I did originally check TheArameanOfMidyat, but there was not enough connection to mention. I would also like to be clear at this point that we are very likely dealing with a lot of meat, and I’m less and less comfortable as we dig for accounts in using CU to identify accounts that may live in a same generic area. What is strong evidence has already been dealt with – and I would have been able to see connected socks with the strong connections. Lets put the CU side of this case to rest. — [[User talk:AmandaNP|<span style=”color:white;background-color:#8A2DB8″><b>Amanda</b> (she/her)</span>]] 05:04, 25 September 2025 (UTC)

*{{np|Devi van velden}} {{bwt}} as [[WP:MEAT]] – looks like all their edits on Sept 22 are just to reinstate edits from editors blocked as part of this SPI. [[User:Asilvering|asilvering]] ([[User talk:Asilvering|talk]]) 21:34, 24 September 2025 (UTC)

*Alright, that’s all the maybe-loose ends checked off, and warnings handed out to everyone who didn’t already have one. Some of these names are re-reports. Like I said last time, having the same POV as someone else doesn’t make you their meatpuppet. Please don’t report people here just because they also share the “Aramean pov” and are editing similar articles. If they’re being obvious dicks (eg {{np|Aramaic777}}), just report them as obvious dicks and admins can block them for that. [[User:Asilvering|asilvering]] ([[User talk:Asilvering|talk]]) 05:36, 25 September 2025 (UTC)

—-<!— All comments go ABOVE this line, please. –>

For archived investigations, see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Wlaak/Archive.

– This SPI case is closed and will be archived shortly by an SPI clerk or checkuser.

Suspected sockpuppets

[edit]

It was hard to pick a parent account but I’ve decided on Wlaak since among everyone listed, he had the biggest editing activity when it came to this topic area (WP:GS/ACAS). He has already had a sockpuppetry investigation in the past [1], which I’ve linked behind me; I would recommend that CU read through that first SPI to understand the context necessary for this particular investigation. Furthermore, I sent an email to CU last week with evidence and concerns of off-Wiki canvassing, but they haven’t gotten back to me. I’m bolding so that CU can check it and see said evidence. The text below is almost the same text that was pasted onto the email, accounting for new developments and evidence in the week since (which I’m not even surprised about at this point). I will make a new reply to it soon.

DavidKaf’s first edit is on the article Anıtlı, Midyat [2]; one of Wlaak’s first edits was on this article [3], and he accrued as much as 34 before his topic ban. DavidKaf’s edit consists of removing sourced information from an online exhibit about a church in the village, saying it Diyarbakir (the province the exhibit is dedicated to) is not Anıtlı. Meanwhile, his other edits on the page consist of removing all mentions of Assyrians in favor of the term “Syriacs” [4] [5] [6]. On the very same day, he begins a redirect discussion for Syriac people [7], currently relisted here [8], and later makes edits of a similar nature as Anıtlı to the articles Gülgöze, Midyat [9] [10] [11], Midyat [12], Tur Abdin [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] (which is now ECP [19]), and Günyurdu, Nusaybin [20] [21] [22]. Haberli, İdil saw a similar edit, which I’ll discuss as part of one of the listed accounts later on [23].

Devi van velden is one of the accounts that was mentioned in the first SPI filed on Wlaak, but was not listed. After one edit in December 2024, they suddenly make a Keep vote for Wlaak’s Draft:Aramean people, which was the centerpiece of the controversy that created general sanctions ACAS [24]. After May and before September was mostly just them changing “Assyrian” to “Aramean” or “Syriac” while using edit summaries such as “Corrected a misnomer” or “Corrected a wrong name”. Starting September 3rd, they suddenly jump on to Anıtlı, Midyat to revert a revert [25] of DavidKaf’s edits that the user Shmayo made [26]. Similar instances happened on Gülgöze, Midyat [27] [28], Syriac-Aramean flag (which DavidKaf also edited [29] [30]) [31] [32], and Haberli, İdil [33] [34]. They request page protection for each of these three village articles, all of which are denied [35] [36] [37]. Shmayo reverts these edits once again on the 6th, which DVV reverts on the same day [38] [39] [40] [41]. DVV then leaves a message on Shmayo’s talk page insinuating page ownership and that these edits go against WP:NPOV and WP:CONSENSUS; the conversation can be found here [42]. Also on the same day, DVV votes on the discussion DavidKaf opened for Syriac people with Retarget [43].

Continuing with Devi van velden, on the same day as their other edits, they restore information that appears to have been previously discussed for removal on Ephrem the Syrian [44], and reverts tens of thousands of bites worth of added information on Jacob of Edessa [45] and Michael the Syrian [46]. These articles were edited by a user named Hogshine, but this is where the situation starts to get messy. On Ephrem the Syrian, Hogshine reverts DVV’s edits [47] before DVV reverts again [48]. On Jacob of Edessa, DVV adds information into the article before Hogshine reverts once more [49] [50]. This happens for a second time between September 6th-7th [51] [52] before a brand new account, Aramean86, suddenly makes the same revert and restores DVV’s version (more detail on this below). Hogshine reverted again earlier today [53], before DavidKaf suddenly jumps onto the article for the very first time and reverts along with some other changes [54]. DavidKaf had no on-Wiki activity between August 25th and September 17th (today), with his first edit being on this article [55]. A similar pattern is observed on Michael the Syrian [56], Mor Gabriel Monastery [57], and Mor Hananyo Monastery [58].

As mentioned previously, Aramean86 jumps straight onto Jacob of Edessa and restores the exact same text that DVV was restoring [59], then attempts to remove all of Hoghsine’s additions to Mor Hananyo Monastery [60]. 5 days later, they go onto the article Turoyo language and change the ethnic name of the language’s speakers from “Assyrian” to “Aramean” [61]. This is then reverted [62] before Aramean86 uses the same edit summary to change it back [63], before I revert it once more [64]. After a Dutch IP [65] reverts and I re-revert [66] [67], another brand new account called AramaicFuse makes the same change with the edit summary “Added correct name” [68], which is again reverted [69].

Continuing with AramaicFuse, earlier today they make edits to Michael the Syrian with the edit summary “Correcting propaganda” [70]. On their user page they write the line “The Syriac-Arameans have waken. we are ready to fight Assyrian propaganda” [71], before then suddenly reverting [72]. DavidKaf then reverts AramaicFuse’s edits [73] and leaves a talk page message to them [74].

777network was also mentioned but not included in the first SPI; like with Devi van velden, they made a Keep vote for Wlaak’s Aramean people draft [75]. In relation to this report, they have also voted Retarget on DavidKaf’s discussion for Syriac people [76], and have removed sourced info on Shamoun Hanne Haydo that called him an Assyrian [77].

Historynerd361 was one of the accounts included in the first SPI. They haven’t been active since June but I have included them because of earlier mentioned edits related to Haberli, İdil. Wlaak leaves a message on Chaotic Enby’s talk page about reporting an unnamed editor for “dealing with the highly sensitive topic again” [78] before deleting the opened post [79]. Suddenly out of nowhere on June 22nd, HN361 files an ANI report on me for “edit-warring” when there is no edit-warring by using the same rationale, citing my edits on Anıtlı and Haberli as supposed proof of this [80]. Please note that across these different village articles, the sources describe the people as being either Assyrian or Syriac, but both reference the same group. This rationale has also been referenced by DavidKaf and DVV in their own edits on these articles.

Given their recent account creations and/or sudden appearances, similar habitual editing patterns, participation across the same articles, the opened Redirect discussion, etc., I am 100% convinced that this is a continuation of the suggested meatpuppetry from back in March-May. I honestly fail to see another possibility for how these accounts could suddenly emerge like this, let alone on the exact same articles, and be given the benefit of the doubt that they’re not in some way, shape, or form, connected to each other. I haven’t been personally involved in these on-Wiki disputes, but I am still trying to piece together the edits surrounding Michael, Jacob, Ephrem, Mor Hananyo, and Mor Gabriel. If any editors (namely @Hogshine: as they were the first editor of these articles) see this and can detail exactly what is going on, feel free to reply below. Surayeproject3 (talk) 15:59, 17 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It hasn’t even been a day after filing this SPI report, and now another new account, Aramaic777, removes the Assyrian culture template on Turoyo language and files a request for protection [81]. They’ve just now tried deleting thousands of bits of information on Suret language [82]. Another one to be added to the SPI investigation. Surayeproject3 (talk) 17:25, 17 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Worth mentioning that I‌ have edited Joseph II (Chaldean Catholic patriarch) earlier today, mentioning Suret language. Hogshine (talk) 17:51, 17 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

For Aramaic777, we have an IP that just replied to the talk page message I left on their page [83]. “Nakno emokh” is how we say “F**k you” in Surayt, so maybe the IP and the account both match up. (and another one here [84]) Surayeproject3 (talk) 19:00, 17 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The new reply to the email sent to CU has been made. Please note that off-Wiki evidence also implicates the account [85], whose contributions can be found in the link behind this text. Surayeproject3 (talk) 17:46, 17 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Another reply; this time, DavidKaf appears to have edited the Turkish version of the article for Assyrians in the exact same format as Wlaak’s Draft:Aramean people [86] [87]. This is especially true for the sections about the modern day culture such as Sports, Music, and more. Surayeproject3 (talk) 21:40, 17 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Accused parties may also comment/discuss in this section below. See Defending yourself against claims.

Thank you for creating this. It has been frustrating dealing with all these identical reverts with little discussion from a swarm while juggling multiple articles articles I’ve significantly contributed to.

Relevant articles: Mor Hananyo Monastery, Mor Gabriel Monastery, Jacob of Edessa, Michael the Syrian

Perhaps the worst is Michael the Syrian. They removed well-cited content across the article that is actually neutral with regards to the ongoing Wikipedia:GS/ACAS. Despite claiming to want neutrality, they’ve lessened the neutrality of the article re: ACAS. I discuss this on its talk page. Extremely concerning for WP:POV. Edit: looks like it was it was reverted once again. They tag-team and take turns; one reverts, then the next, then the next…

Finally, if it’s not obvious yet, there’s clearly off-wiki coordination. Hogshine (talk) 17:48, 17 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Asilvering I just read previous SPI and other relevant posts/edits (took a while). I think it’s very unlikely that any of them are Wlaak I thought so at first, but came across the following:

There is huge overlap between Wlaak’s & DavidKaf’s edits, often Syr.Orth. villages in Turkey: Öğündük, İdil / Beth Kustan, Midyat / Anıtlı, Midyat (both make extensive edits here) + Hah / Elbeğendi, Midyat / Tur Abdin / Melke Hanne Haydo / Shamoun Hanne Haydo / Üçköy, Nusaybin / Haberli, İdil / Gülgöze, Midyat. Sometimes, whatever Wlaak edited that got removed, was reinstated by DavidKaf

Other pages do not overlap but follow the same theme & changes: Roony Bardghji / Günyurdu, Nusaybin / Syriac / Mor Hananyo Monastery / Mor Gabriel Monastery. Last 2 were contested only after my edits, which happened after Wlaak’s ban.

If indeed a sockpuppet, CU would show the same country or town but a different IP, as DavidKaf’s edits are tagged iOS. Hogshine (talk) 13:01, 19 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk, CheckUser, and/or patrolling admin comments

[edit]

Clerk endorsed – Mostly endorsing as “check your email”. I think this is far more likely to be the result of off-wiki co-ordination than it is sockpuppetry, and I think it’s very unlikely that any of them are Wlaak. Nonetheless I think it’s probably a good idea to check for any obvious sockpuppets before someone gets too deep sorting this all out with behavioural blocks or ACAS sanctions. Surayeproject3, Hogshine, please remember to leave the ACAS notices on talk pages of editors who are working in this topic area. We can’t issue ACAS sanctions if they aren’t made aware of them first. asilvering (talk) 18:26, 17 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Hogshine, I’ve removed most of your very long comment. It’s still in the page history if you end up needing it for a report at WP:ANI, but please stick to sockpuppetry-related information here. — asilvering (talk) 18:31, 17 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Asilvering I left contentious topic notices to some of the most active editors in this area, some of them were already warned when I went to see their talk pages. I didn’t leave it on 777network and Historynerd361’s pages yet. Surayeproject3 (talk) 18:48, 17 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I gave one to Historynerd in July (not a formal template, since we didn’t have that yet iirc). — asilvering (talk) 18:49, 17 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I’ve just left the contentious topic notice on 777network’s page, I forgot to do so earlier. If there’s nothing else of concern here than this SPI should be closed at admin’s earliest convenience. Surayeproject3 (talk) 14:36, 22 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
DavidKaf Confirmed to Wlaak, Possible to 777network, Possible to AramaicFuse (having only 5/6 edits in CU is not helping)

Aramean86 is GabrielBossjr

All other accounts listed are

Unrelated on any level.

I would also like to note, that breaking things down by editor makes it harder to analyze connection, not easier. It’s better to group by article/topic. On top of that, ticket:2025091010000588 was particularly unhelpful, as it only linked off-wiki activity to 1 account. — Amanda (she/her) 23:27, 20 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Well, that’s very disappointing. @AmandaNP, could you CU-block either Wlaak or DavidKaf, and temp-block the other? Wlaak is currently tbanned from WP:GS/ACAS so this is both a repeated tban violation and sockpuppetry. — asilvering (talk) 23:34, 20 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Done and blocked Amamean86 also since I was here. — Amanda (she/her) 23:58, 20 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@AmandaNP, I see you linked Aramean86 to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/GabrielBossjr, can I assume this means that Historynerd361 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · spi block · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) is technically unrelated to that case as well? Really just asking because of the username coincidence. — asilvering (talk) 17:01, 24 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently I forgot to check them somehow. They are

Possible to the whole DavidKaf group on the first line. But yes, it’s unrelated to the GabrielBossjr group. — Amanda (she/her) 04:58, 25 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted – Aramaic777 was mentioned in the text above but wasn’t added to the socklist. Relisting for a check on that one specifically. Thanks. asilvering (talk) 17:04, 24 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Given the relisting, I have also added “TheArameanOfMidyat” to the list of accounts, since I mentioned them as well as part of sending off-Wiki evidence to the email. Surayeproject3 (talk) 17:14, 24 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Surayeproject3, I don’t see anything that you’ve mentioned about this account above except for the email thing – Amanda did look at the email, so I would assume they were already checked. — asilvering (talk) 17:16, 24 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Asilvering I didn’t mention them by name but linked to their profile in the area with the sentence, “Please note that off-Wiki evidence also implicates the account [85], whose contributions can be found in the link behind this text.” I am adding them in case a check needs to be done, but given the heavy off-Wiki suspicions, I wouldn’t be surprised is something did come up. Surayeproject3 (talk) 17:21, 24 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Aramaic777 is subject to the original “all other accounts” being unrelated. I did originally check TheArameanOfMidyat, but there was not enough connection to mention. I would also like to be clear at this point that we are very likely dealing with a lot of meat, and I’m less and less comfortable as we dig for accounts in using CU to identify accounts that may live in a same generic area. What is strong evidence has already been dealt with – and I would have been able to see connected socks with the strong connections. Lets put the CU side of this case to rest. — Amanda (she/her) 05:04, 25 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Devi van velden Blocked without tags as WP:MEAT – looks like all their edits on Sept 22 are just to reinstate edits from editors blocked as part of this SPI. asilvering (talk) 21:34, 24 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, that’s all the maybe-loose ends checked off, and warnings handed out to everyone who didn’t already have one. Some of these names are re-reports. Like I said last time, having the same POV as someone else doesn’t make you their meatpuppet. Please don’t report people here just because they also share the “Aramean pov” and are editing similar articles. If they’re being obvious dicks (eg Aramaic777), just report them as obvious dicks and admins can block them for that. asilvering (talk) 05:36, 25 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Suspected sockpuppets

Clerk, CheckUser, and/or patrolling admin comments

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