Talk:Congregation of Mother of Carmel: Difference between revisions

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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request: Remove “co founder” from Leopold Beccaro ==

{{Edit extended-protected|Congregation of Mother of Carmel|answered=no}}

{{Edit extended-protected|Congregation of Mother of Carmel|answered=}}

Please change “Leopold Beccaro was their spiritual director and co founder” to “Leopold Beccaro was their spiritual director.”

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:I request that the phrase “and co founder” be removed to align the article with the most reliable sources.

[[User:Desertstorm1000|Desertstorm1000]] ([[User talk:Desertstorm1000|talk]]) 04:42, 26 September 2025 (UTC)

:{{not done}}”’:”'<!– Template:EEp –> This appears to be an AI-generated edit request, which is not permitted per [[WP:LLMTALK]]. [[User:Day Creature|Day Creature]] ([[User talk:Day Creature|talk]]) 06:51, 26 September 2025 (UTC)

please change”by servant of God Mother Eliswa Valayil’ to ” by St.Kuriakose Elias Chavara, the founder and Rev. For. Leopold Beccaro OCD, the Co- founder.” Adaji (talk) 14:53, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Elizium23 (talk) 14:59, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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Founder: St.Kuriakose Elias Chavara Awardee (talk) 16:30, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
please change”by servant of God Mother Eliswa Valayil’ to ” by St.Kuriakose Elias Chavara, the founder and Rev. For. Leopold Beccaro OCD, the Co- founder.” Adaji (talk) 14:53, 10 June 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Awardee (talk • contribs) [reply]

please change”by servant of God Mother Eliswa Valayil’ to ” by St.Kuriakose Elias Chavara, the founder and Rev. For. Leopold Beccaro OCD, the Co- founder.” Anudismi (talk) 16:36, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:37, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

please change”by servant of God Mother Eliswa Valayil’ to ” by St.Kuriakose Elias Chavara, the founder and Rev. For. Leopold Beccaro OCD, the Co- founder.” Anudismi (talk) 16:42, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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Change Founder “Servant of God Mother Eliswa Vakayil” to “St Kuriakose Elias Chavara”
Reference

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuriakose_Elias_Chavara#Carmelite_Congregation_for_Women

https://cmcusamission.org/

Not done: Fails MOS:SAINT. Melmann 11:25, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Done thank you for the sources. I have updated the article. I don’t know what Melmann was talking about. Elizium23 (talk) 13:00, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please change “Leopold Beccaro was their spiritual director and co founder” to “Leopold Beccaro was their spiritual director.” The “co founder” claim is not supported by reliable sources. Desertstorm1000 (talk) 02:49, 21 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Per the website noted in the references: “The Congregation of the Mother of Carmel was founded by St. Kuriakose Elias Chavara and Rev. Fr. Leopold Beccarro on February 13, 1866.” Nubzor [T][C] 03:27, 21 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the review, Nubzor. I understand your position, but there are more reliable sources that support the change.

The official position of the Church, as documented in the Dicastery decree[1] and the KCBC site[2], is that Mother Eliswa was the foundress of the original congregation from which the CMC later came. These ecclesiastical documents are the highest authority on the matter and do not refer to Leopold Beccaro as a co-founder, only as a spiritual director.

Based on these more authoritative sources, I ask that you please reconsider the request to change “Leopold Beccaro was their spiritual director and co founder” to “Leopold Beccaro was their spiritual director.”
Desertstorm1000 (talk) 18:47, 23 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

[1] https://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/en/bollettino/pubblico/2025/04/14/250414b.html
[2] https://kcbc.co.in/KCBC/ReligiousDetails/52

The Congregation of the Mother of Carmel (C.M.C.) is a Syro-Malabar Catholic religious institute of pontifical right for women, founded on 13 February 1866 at Koonammavu, Kerala. The congregation was established under the guidance of St. Kuriakose Elias Chavara, then Vicar General of the Syro-Malabar Church. Mother Eliswa Vakayil, who was the first woman to profess vows in the congregation.^[1]^[2]^[3]
While Mother Eliswa is honored as the first member and pioneer of the community, ecclesiastical documents and scholarly sources recognize St. Chavara as the founder of the congregation.

Jeevjo (talk) 13:34, 22 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for raising this point. While I appreciate your sources, the official position of the Church, as documented in the Dicastery decree^[1] and the KCBC site^[2], is that Mother Eliswa was the founder of the original congregation (TOCD) from which the Congregation of Teresian Carmelites (CTC) and the Congregation of the Mother of Carmel (CMC) later came. The most reliable sources on this matter would be the official Church documents.

Furthermore, it is important to note a factual inaccuracy in the text provided. St. Kuriakose Elias Chavara passed away in 1871, while the Syro-Malabar hierarchy was established much later in 1923. Therefore, he could not have been the Vicar General of the Syro-Malabar Church. This historical discrepancy in the source text weakens the claim about his role as a founder.
Desertstorm1000 (talk) 16:36, 23 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

“St. Kuriakose Elias Chavara passed away in 1871, while the Syro-Malabar hierarchy was established much later in 1923. Therefore, he could not have been the Vicar General of the Syro-Malabar Church”.

This note made here is due to the lack of knowledge on the history of the Syro-Malabar Church. Syro-malabar Church not born in 1923. It has a long history starting from AD 52, called over time in different names St Thomas Christians, Syrian Christians etc.

8 June,1861Fr. Kuriakos Elias Chavara appointed Vicar General for Syrians. Syro Malabar Church

Syro Malabar Church

Syro Malabar Church 59.88.116.101 (talk) 09:57, 24 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

An update to the discussion is needed based on new, official information from the Vatican.

On November 8, 2023, Pope Francis authorized the Dicastery for the Causes of Saints to promulgate a decree declaring Mother Eliswa Vakayil as Venerable. The official Vatican document from the Dicastery explicitly identifies her as the “founder of the Congregation of the Third Order of the Descalced Carmelites” (TOCD)^[3].

This decree from the highest authority of the Catholic Church confirms that Mother Eliswa was the founder of the original congregation. The historical record shows that this original congregation later bifurcated into the Congregation of the Mother of Carmel (CMC) and the Congregation of Teresian Carmelites (CTC) on the basis of rite^[4]. This official recognition directly addresses the dispute over the founder’s identity.

Given this definitive declaration by the Church, the page should reflect that Mother Eliswa was the foundress of the TOCD, which is the original congregation of the C.M.C. and the C.T.C.
Desertstorm1000 (talk) 18:14, 23 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your response. However, I would like to highlight a few clarifications based on the same official sources you mentioned:

According to the official description on the Kerala Catholic Bishops’ Council (KCBC) website, the Congregation of the Mother of Carmel (CMC) is recorded as follows:

> Name of Congregation: Congregation of the Mother of Carmel

Founder: St. Kuriakose Elias Chavara

Founded On: 13 February 1866 [1].

The KCBC further explains:

> “The Congregation of the Mother of Carmel (CMC), which is the first indigenous Congregation for women in the Kerala Catholic Syrian Church in India, was founded on 13 February 1866 at Koonamavu, Kerala, by Saint Kuriakose Elias Chavara and the Co-Founder Rev. Fr. Leopold Beccaro OCD. The vision of the founders about the Congregation was the personal sanctification of the members and the salvific upliftment of the fellow beings, especially women and children.” [1].

Initially, the community was known as the Third Order of the Carmelite Discalced (TOCD). Due to subsequent ecclesiastical developments in Kerala, the Syrian section of the TOCD was divided into multiple units, which were later amalgamated under a single Superior General on 16 November 1963. On 2 March 1967, the Congregation was raised to Pontifical Status under the title “The Congregation of the Mother of Carmel,” through the Decree Prot. No. 504/57, thus confirming its canonical standing at the universal level of the Church.

The Dicastery for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life of the Holy See also explicitly recognizes St. Kuriakose Elias Chavara as the founder of the CMC [1].

While Mother Eliswa is acknowledged as having played an important role in the early history of the congregation, the official records of the Church, including Vatican documents, consistently affirm St. Kuriakose Elias Chavara as the founder of the Congregation of the Mother of Carmel (CMC).

[1] https://kcbc.co.in/KCBC/ReligiousDetails/11 Jeevjo (talk) 18:33, 23 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your continued engagement, Jeevjo. I’d like to clarify a few points you raised based on the provided references.

You are correct that the KCBC page for the CMC lists St. Kuriakose Elias Chavara as the founder. However, it is important to note that the KCBC’s page for the **Teresian Carmelite Congregation (CTC)** lists Mother Eliswa as the foundress of the original community, the Third Order Discalced Carmelite Congregation (TOCD) [1]. This demonstrates a clear conflict in the historical accounts even within the same official Church body.

The most definitive sources on this matter are the official decrees from the Dicastery for the Causes of Saints. The decree of 14 April 2025 explicitly recognizes Mother Eliswa as the foundress of the TOCD, from which both the CMC and the CTC later emerged [2]. Furthermore, the decree of 8 November 2023, which declared her Venerable, also identifies her as the “founder of the Congregation of the Third Order of the Descalced Carmelites” (TOCD) [3].

This is further corroborated by the official history of the CTC, which describes the 1890 bifurcation of this congregation founded by Mother Eliswa [4].

This consistent recognition from multiple authoritative sources clarifies the historical context and definitively establishes Mother Eliswa as the foundress of the original congregation. This official documentation directly addresses the dispute over the founder’s identity.

Desertstorm1000 (talk) 20:27, 23 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

This site did not evaluate the official position of the Church seriously. The Church states Mother Eliswa as the Foundress as the Teresian Carmelite Nuns, not of Congregation of the Mother of Carmel. Here is the official site of Vatican. Here Wikipedia contradicts the validity of Church documents. Please consider this to correct founder of the Congregation of the Mother of Carmel as Saint Kuriakos Elias Chavara.

Promulgation of Decrees of the Dicastery for the Causes of Saints

Promulgation of Decrees of the Dicastery for the Causes of Saints, 14.04.2025

On 14 April 2025, during the audience granted to His Eminence Cardinal Marcello Semeraro, prefect of the Dicastery for the Causes of Saints, the Supreme Pontiff authorized the same Dicastery to promulgate the Decrees regarding:

– the miracle attributed to the intercession of the Venerable Servant of God Eliswa of the Blessed Virgin Mary (née Eliswa Vakayil), founder of the Congregation of the Third Order of the Descalced Carmelites, now the Teresian Carmelite Nuns; born on 15 October 1831 in Ochanthuruth, India, and died in Varapuzha, India, on 18 July 1913. 59.88.116.101 (talk) 09:29, 24 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your continued engagement on this topic. The references you have provided are the most authoritative sources available, and they definitively clarify the historical foundation of the congregation.

The official decree of foundation, the Documentum Erectionis, was signed on February 12, 1866, by Archbishop Bernardine Baccinelli OCD. This decree established the religious congregation known as the Third Order of the Discalced Carmelite (TOCD) for women. The Archbishop officially declared Eliswa, Anna, and Thresia as the “foundation stones” of the congregation on this date. On February 13, 1866, these three women of the Latin Rite formally entered the religious life, establishing the first convent in Kerala.

The subsequent history of this congregation is detailed in official Church records. The decrees from the Dicastery for the Causes of Saints leave no room for ambiguity regarding the foundress. The decree of 14 April 2025 explicitly recognizes Mother Eliswa as the “founder of the Congregation of the Third Order of the Descalced Carmelites, now the Teresian Carmelite Nuns (CTC).” This is further corroborated by the decree of 8 November 2023, which also identifies her as the founder of the TOCD.

This consistent and official recognition from the Holy See, combined with the original founding document, definitively establishes Mother Eliswa as the foundress of the original congregation. The historical fact is that this unified congregation was later bifurcated in 1890 due to external ecclesiastical changes. From this original foundation, two congregations emerged: the Teresian Carmelite Nuns (CTC) for the Latin Rite and the Congregation of the Mother of Carmel (CMC) for the Syro-Malabar Rite.

All the official documentation directly addresses and resolves any dispute over the founder’s identity. Based on these authoritative sources, the historical record is clear.Desertstorm1000 (talk) 19:08, 24 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion Conclusion: Consensus for the requested change (Mother Eliswa to St. Kuriakose Elias Chavara) has not been reached. The superior authority of the official Vatican decrees provided in this thread, which identify Mother Eliswa as the founder of the original TOCD (from which the CMC arose), weighs against making the proposed edit. The existing content should remain until new, superior sourcing is presented.

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please change “Leopold Beccaro was their spiritual director and co founder” to “Leopold Beccaro was their spiritual director.”

Rationale: The “co founder” claim is not supported by the highest ecclesiastical authorities, which consistently identify Mother Eliswa as the foundress of the original congregation (TOCD) from which the CMC emerged.

1. Vatican Decrees (Superior Authority): The Dicastery decrees of **November 2023** and **April 2025** consistently identify Mother Eliswa as the founder of the original TOCD. These authoritative sources do not grant **”co-founder”** status to Fr. Beccaro, referring to him only as a **spiritual director**.

2. WP:RS Standard: Official decrees from the Holy See (Vatican) are the most authoritative sources on these matters and must take precedence over general claims on institutional websites.

I request that the phrase “and co founder” be removed to align the article with the most reliable sources.

Desertstorm1000 (talk) 04:42, 26 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: This appears to be an AI-generated edit request, which is not permitted per WP:LLMTALK. Day Creature (talk) 06:51, 26 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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